Max number of recepts per circuit

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Jim W in Tampa

Senior Member
Location
Tampa Florida
allenwayne said:
Jim have you ever had an inspector say to you that they would like to see something even a minor item that would take a few seconds to do.But the sane inspector has signed off inspections on your word that the factual nec violation will be corrected.I`m not saying that go along with the red tag for 4 br`s on one afci.But sometimes we get a whole lot more bees with honey than vinegar.
Minor stuff that makes some since sure.They know our company and know the man behind it.Our word is usually good enough.Never been told to break any codes and our jobs usually are beyond nec requirements.Ask for something minor to keep him happy that cost 5 minutes and $5 sure.Have had them sign off on jobs that had hours to go before it was ready for inspection.They see what kind of work your doing and that helps.
 

dnem

Senior Member
Location
Ohio
georgestolz said:
The thing is, a code minimum house is not sexy, it's not even cute. :D
You got that right
georgestolz said:
Really, by code, even if we were to conclude that a circuit would cover no more than 600 sq.ft., then that could cover 4 150 sq.ft. bedrooms. That's four 12'x12' bedrooms.
You're right
3 11'x11' bedrooms are 3x121=363 square feet
That leaves 237 square feet for the master
a 15'x15' master bedroom =225

You can usually cover an 11'x11' room with 4 plugs and probably cover the 15'x15' master with 5 plugs. [2',6',12' spacing 210.52(A)(1)&(A)(2)(1)]
3x4
1x5
=17

So that would be 17 plugs on one 15 amp circuit in 4 different rooms for that example. The lights would then be circuited separately.

One large greatroom of 24'x24' has 576 square feet could possibly be covered with as few as 8 plugs on one 15 amp circuit for just that one room. The lights would once again need to be circuited separately.

This whole exercise helps me get an overall visual image of how much house we're talking about when we say 600 square feet for a 15 amp circuit [800' for 20 amp].

David
 

dnem

Senior Member
Location
Ohio
georgestolz said:
I have to say, if they react with the same healthy vigor you have displayed here, I'd be stunned. :D
Thanks for the good words
georgestolz said:
220.14(I) specifically references SABC's and Laundry, and specifically excludes them from this rule. SABC's and Laundry circuits are specifically supplying receptacle outlets, that have no other outlets. You will find no "other outlets" (220.14(L)) on these circuits to calculate. So the only section you could apply to them is 220.14(I), which specifically excludes them by name.
It seems that the Handbook doesn't agree with you. I know that the Handbook commetary isn't code nor is it enforcable, but when it comes to interpreting ambiguous phrases, it comes down to your opinion, my opinion, and the Handbook authors opinion. Of the 3, I think the Handbook authors opinion has the most authority.

The discrepency seems to revolve around the word "general-use" in 220.14(J)(1)
220.14(J)(3) is 210.70(A)&(B) lighting outlets
220.14(J)(2) is 210.52(E) outdoor &(G) basement & garage
220.14(J)(1) is general-use including 210.11(C)(3) bathroom

In the Handbook commentary for 220.14(I), page 106, the third commentary sentence in blue lettering reads, "The receptacle outlets are not the lighting outlets installed for general illumination or the small-appliance branch circuits, as indicated in 220.14(J)."

There is nowhere in 220.14(J) that small appliance circuits are mentioned by name. So if they are "indicated in 220.14(J)" then I believe that would have to be as part of "general-use" in 220.14(J)(1). Therefore 220.14(J) would apply to small appliance circuits and not 220.14(I). That would mean that small appliance circuits are small appliance general-use circuits and should be limited to 800 square feet of coverage.
[The 3 volt-ampere per square foot of Table 220.12 is 3 ? 120 volts = 0.025 amps per square foot]
[800 square feet x 0.025 = 20 amp circuit]
[600 square feet x 0.025 = 15 amp circuit]

David
 

dnem

Senior Member
Location
Ohio
eprice said:
dnem said:
There obviously is a connected load because the NEC requires spacing of 2,6,&12 feet - 210.52(A)(1)&(A)(2)(1) and that connected load is spelled out in Table 220.12 Dwelling units, 3 watts per square foot which is 0.025 amps per square foot. The 600 square feet mentioned earlier in this thread is 600 x 0.025 = 15 amps for a 14 gauge circuit. That also would be 800 x 0.025 = 20 amps for a 12 gauge circuit.

I don't agree. The 3 volt-amperes per square foot is a calculated load, an anticipated load. Lights installed on lighting circuits would be connected load. A receptacle installed on a general purpose circuit, but having nothing plugged in is not a load. It is just a convenient place where a load can be connected if desired. A circuit serving only receptacle outlets has no connected load until something is plugged in. Through most of 210.11(B), the code talks about calculated load, but then, in the last sentence it begins talking about connected load, which in this case, is not the same.
It has been asked in this thread the meaning of the last sentence in 210.11(B) "Branch-circuit overcurrent devices and circuits shall only be required to be installed to serve the connected load."
This has been used to say that branch circuit receptacle numbers don't have to be limited by calculated load numbers from Table 220.12.

But look at the main body of 210.11. It starts out by says, "Branch circuits for lighting and for appliances, including motor-operated appliances, shall be provided to supply the loads calculated in accordance with 220.10." Branch circuits...shall be provided to supply the loads calculated... This makes it clear that 220.10 calculated load is part of the connected load. So I'm sticking by my opinion of the meaning of the last sentence of 210.11(B) "Branch-circuit overcurrent devices and circuits shall only be required to be installed to serve the connected load." This doesn't mean that you don't have to have branch circuits for receptacles. It means that the calculated load of 220.10 is part of the connected load.

210.11(A) says, "The minimum number of branch circuits shall be determined from the total calculated load..." calculated load determines number of branch circuits not just service and feeder size.

This prevents AHJs from dictating service sizes and number of circuits in any house. If the AHJ wants something specific like, all houses having 200 amp service mains and 42 space panels, then it better be part of their local codes because the NEC is saying that it won't back up an AHJ that demands more than is shown to be necessary by calculations for each individual home.
The connected load is a combination of actual nameplate load on all equipment plus calculated load:
(1) Power (amperage) requirements of all equipment being installed.
(2) Hard wired lighting that is desired or required by 210.70
(3) General lighting load Table 220.12 which includes all general-use receptacles
According to 220.14(J), general-use receptacles are:
...(*) 210.52(A) spaced according to 210.52(A)(1)&(A)(2)(1)
...(*) 210.52(B)&(C), 210.11(C)(1) small appliance
...(*) 210.52(D), 210.11(C)(3) bath
(4) Receptacles that are not spaced according to 210.52(A)(1)&(A)(2)(1)
...(*) 210.52(F), 210.11(C)(2) laundry
...(*) 210.52(E),(G),&(H) outdoor, basement, garage, & halls

The combination of all of these will determine service size and number of circuits needed. Anything larger than this is at the desire of the customer and not the dictate of the AHJ unless there are local codes to enforce stricter standards.

David
 

scott thompson

Senior Member
Well, this is an area of discussion which has been tossed around over and over, for many years in several Electrical based forums (and in real-time too!).

I find that pointing out the most obvious data, that being the intentions of all parties involved (AHJ and EC), using the basic requirements and reasoning behind them, makes for a real fun time! (read: toss some fuel on the flames)
Nevertheless, I prefer to go this route - mainly to show what is the bottom-line minimum per a Jurisdiction using only a given version of the NEC (NFPA 70) as a guideline.

As usual, if any Jurisdiction has ammended the NEC's Articles in any fashion, which has altered the "Model Code" in one way or another (either by acceptance with ammendments by one, some or all agencies, or has been deleted by one, some or all agencies), this superceeds any of the "Model Code" base articles of the NEC.
Also, keep in mind that not every County in U.S.A. will follow the NEC - a few do not have Code Requirements for some Electrical Installations!

Adding to these Jurisdictional items, there is nothing HAZARDOUS about installing Electrical stuff to minimum Code articles preferences. As long as the installations will not create threats to life and property, there's no real danger. Inconveniences and annoyances are not lawful reasons of code enforcement (remember the "Fung Suei Code Proposal" a couple years ago in San Francisco? That's a perfect example).

On the same note, this brings in "Design Issues", of which, criteria for performance of electrical installations is "specified" per design, found within contract documents.
These "Issues" may exceed minimal Code Compliance, but may not fall below any minimal compliance (either per article or with engineering exceptions), as this may be a HAZARDOUS Installation.
Exceeding minimal compliance is for the benefit of the Client (Customer), and takes on a whole new set of "Inspections" and "Compliances", which is outside of the realm of the local Building Department - as these are more directed to performance for the Client "All-Around" than minimal conformance for Building Safety.

For now, we will focus on a simple single family dwelling of like 1,000 Sq. Ft., in a Jurisdiction which has accepted to use the NEC "as-is" (with no ammendments). We will not cover any items which may be related to other Building Codes (Mech., Plumb., Building, Energy conservation, etc.), and will be looking at only the BASIC ITEMS of the install (excluding any _SPECIFIC_ electric loads - such as Electric Cooking equipment, Electric water heating equipment, HVAC, Electric Motors, or Swimming Pool / Hot Tub equipment).
The House has the following rooms:

One Kitchen, One Laundry Room, One Living Room, One Family Room, One Dining Room, Three Bedrooms, Two Bathrooms, One Hallway, and a Two-Car Garage.

# 1:: Service Feeder Load Calcs:

General Lighting + Receptacles - 1,000 Sq. Ft. @ 3.0 VA/sq.ft. = 3,000 VA.
Small appliance circuits equal an additional 3,000 VA to the figure.
Laundry circuit adds 1,500 VA to the figure.
(Small Appliance and Laundry may be included with the Gen. Ltg + Recepts. load, using demand factors, or they may be added as there own entries - outside of the Gen. Ltg. values, and be figured without demand factors - it's up to the "Designer").

This results in a Service Load calculation of 31.25 Amperes at 240 Volts - which would be adequately served from a 60 Amp 120/240V 1? 3 Wire Main Service Panelboard, with "Electrical Contractor Installed" feeders of # 6 THHN cu size.
The Utility Company - if were doing the Service Feeders all the way to the Line side of the kWh Meter, may use conductors of 40 amp capacity - sized per the NESC, which might end up being # 8 al., or even #10 al.

# 2: How Many Circuits Is Minimal???

Let's cover the "MINIMAL REQUIRED CIRCUITS" for this installation, per 210.11(A) and (C) of the 2002 NEC:

  • Two (2) Small Appliance Circuits,
  • One (1) Laundry Circuit,
  • One (1) Bathroom Circuit,
  • One (1) Bedroom AFCI protected Circuit.

That's it!!!

We need to install at least one Circuit, which is separate from the above listed Circuits, that we can place General Lighting and General use receptacles on - but does the NEC ever state that we MUST install enough circuitry to accomidate the 3VA/sq.ft load calc. figures? Not really!
The 3VA/sq. ft. figure is NOT A CONNECTED LOAD VALUE!!! It's a minimal figure for Service Ampacity (more correctly, Service Capacity).
If you had this 1,000 Sq. Ft. House, would you ever have 3,000 VA of Lighting going at the same time?
Queue the song "I Wear My Sunglasses At Night"
Even with Receptacle loads - most of which would likely be Portable Lamps, how often would this 3 KVA figure be reality?

So, according to article 210.52, we need to install Receptacle Outlets in these following locations in dwelling units:

Kitchen areas (anything in the areas for preparing food), Bathrooms, Outdoors (at least one), Laundry Rooms, Basement , Garages, Hallways, Family Rooms, Dining Rooms, Living Rooms, Parlors, Libraries, Dens, Sun Rooms, Bed Rooms, and Recreation Rooms.

Additionally, 210.70 explains we need to provide Lighting Outlets in every Habitable Room and Bath Room (at least One Wall-Switch Controlled Lighting Outlet in these rooms), and at least one wall-switch controlled Lighting Outlet in Hallways, Stairways, Garages (attached or detached garages with electric power), outside of these Garages, attics, Underfloor spaces, Utility Rooms, and Basements.

We do need to design the Lighting Circuit to the _CONNECTED LOAD_ we have placed on it, and once again, we are free to design ourselves, as there is no NEC required LIGHTING POWER LEVEL specified in the Code Book.

In the Bedrooms, we choose to use "1/2 Hot Receptacles" for Lighting, which places the Bedroom Lighting Outlets on the AFCI Protected Bedroom Circuit.
We also plan to use "1/2 Hots" in the Living Room and Family Room.
The remaining rooms / areas will use "Fixed Lighting Outlets", which total up to be a MINIMUM of 8 Lighting Outlets for these remaining areas.

If we plan to use Lighting Outlets of 150 Watt rating (maximum), this will be a _CONNECTED LOAD_ of 1,200 VA - which may easilly be supplied by a single 20 amp circuit.
We even have the capacity to include General Purpose Receptacles on this Lighting Circuit - and still conform to _BASIC NEC_, but to be nice, we will give these General Purpose Receptacles there own Circuit.

So how many _BASIC_ Circuits do we need in this Scenario?

Seven (7)

Will it work??

Yes!!!

Will it be _MINIMAL_ Code Compliant???

Yes!!!

Will it be a Hazardous Installation - if installed "Correctly"???

No!!!

Will it pass Inspection by the DBS???

Yes!!!

Will the Installing Electrical Contractor be "Cutting Corners" or "Making A Bundle Of $$$"???

Most likely- No!!!
If there are no specifications to require above-minimal circuitry, and the project was "bid" that way, the EC is not doing anything wrong, and is barely making any profit on the project.

Think over these basic examples in this scenario, then it becomes apparent what the _UNDERLYING INTENT_ is!
This Scenario would be prototypical of nearly any project, which falls under the NEC.

This statement is the most "To-The-Point" and concise thing I have ever heard, and it was stated by an Electrical Inspector:

"Inspectors May Not Exceed Their Authority (only enforce via the rules governed by the documents accepted by the agencies involved - typically, the NEC "NFPA 70"),
And,
Installers May Not Fall Below The Minimums (minimum Code Compliance).
If This Is Not Comprimised, All Is OK"

I see the views from all 3 angles daily in my career:

* From the view of the DBS Inspectors - enforcing the minimal compliancy, but having a "wish" that the minimals were a bit beefier,

* From the view of the Designer - designing an Electrical System which works, yet every Client Meeting results in more and more "Value Engineering",

* From the view of the Electrical Contractor - Proposal price is just enough to cover all overhead expenses, with a small profit - unless something goes wrong.

Look at each project in this aspect, and things become mind numbingly confusing! But this is the way things are in the Industry.
We all need to understand each others' role - and most importantly... TALK TO EACH OTHER!!!

OK, off my soapbox now!

Feel free to fire away!!! :eek:

Scott 35

edited tew cour-reckt sphelleengh :oops:
 
Dave.
220 is calculated loads for minimum usage, generally speaking.

In a dwelling, one can calculate the minimum load, and apply it towards BRANCH CIRCUITS. At that point, I can still install as many additional receptacles to the branch circuit as I desire, because there is no limit to the number of receptacles on a general lighting circuit. Unless known, there is no way of knowing what will be plugged into the receptacle installed.
One may install a wall full of receptacles on a branch circuit with the possiblity of not one receptacle being plugged into. The placement of receptacles is not related to the calculated load. What proves that point is the small appliance branch circuits... the kitchen, pantry, dining room and breakfast room can all be placed on 2 SAB circuits, the code does not place any restrictions as to the number of receptacles on these 2 circuits.
 

dnem

Senior Member
Location
Ohio
scott thompson said:
For now, we will focus on a simple single family dwelling of like 1,000 Sq. Ft., in a Jurisdiction which has accepted to use the NEC "as-is" (with no ammendments)......

.....# 2: How Many Circuits Is Minimal???

Let's cover the "MINIMAL REQUIRED CIRCUITS" for this installation, per 210.11(A) and (C) of the 2002 NEC:

  • Two (2) Small Appliance Circuits,
  • One (1) Laundry Circuit,
  • One (1) Bathroom Circuit,
  • One (1) Bedroom AFCI protected Circuit.

That's it!!!

We need to install at least one Circuit, which is separate from the above listed Circuits, that we can place General Lighting and General use receptacles on - but does the NEC ever state that we MUST install enough circuitry to accomidate the 3VA/sq.ft load calc. figures? Not really!.....

.....So how many _BASIC_ Circuits do we need in this Scenario?

Seven (7)
This is what I see as the problem with your scenerio and with your concept as a whole.
Set aside your 1000 square foot example
Change it to a 10,000 square house
Now how many circuits do you show

Still seven, isn't it !

Now ask your other questions
Will it work??

Yes!!!

Will it be _MINIMAL_ Code Compliant???

Yes!!!

Will it be a Hazardous Installation - if installed "Correctly"???

No!!!
Are your answers still the same ?
Can you actually say that a 10,000 square foot house will function with all receptacles on seven circuits ?

I have one more separate but interrelated point
scott thompson said:
We need to install at least one Circuit, which is separate from the above listed Circuits, that we can place General Lighting and General use receptacles on - but does the NEC ever state that we MUST install enough circuitry to accomidate the 3VA/sq.ft load calc. figures? Not really!
The 3VA/sq. ft. figure is NOT A CONNECTED LOAD VALUE!!! It's a minimal figure for Service Ampacity (more correctly, Service Capacity).
If you had this 1,000 Sq. Ft. House, would you ever have 3,000 VA of Lighting going at the same time?
Queue the song "I Wear My Sunglasses At Night"
Even with Receptacle loads - most of which would likely be Portable Lamps, how often would this 3 KVA figure be reality?.....

.....We do need to design the Lighting Circuit to the _CONNECTED LOAD_ we have placed on it, and once again, we are free to design ourselves, as there is no NEC required LIGHTING POWER LEVEL specified in the Code Book.
You are assuming that the calculated load is not considered as a part of the connected load by the code. I think you should provide support for that assumption.

Add the follow two quotes together and see if you think the code is trying to state that the calculated load is to be treated as part of the connected load or not.

210.11 Branch Circuits Required. Branch circuits for lighting and for appliances, including motor-operated appliances, shall be provided to supply the loads calculated in accordance with 220.10.

210.11(B) [last sentence] Branch-circuit overcurrent devices and circuits shall only be required to be installed to serve the connected load.

How can both requirements make sense if the calculated load is completely independent of the connected load. I see the NEC as specifying that the calculated load is a part of the total connected load. Calculated load plus actual load of equipment installed is total connected load.
scott thompson said:
We need to install at least one Circuit, which is separate from the above listed Circuits, that we can place General Lighting and General use receptacles on - but does the NEC ever state that we MUST install enough circuitry to accomidate the 3VA/sq.ft load calc. figures? Not really!
The 3VA/sq. ft. figure is NOT A CONNECTED LOAD VALUE!!! It's a minimal figure for Service Ampacity (more correctly, Service Capacity).
If you had this 1,000 Sq. Ft. House, would you ever have 3,000 VA of Lighting going at the same time?
Queue the song "I Wear My Sunglasses At Night"
Even with Receptacle loads - most of which would likely be Portable Lamps, how often would this 3 KVA figure be reality?
You can leave your sunglasses at home. The people working on the code panels categorize the general purpose receptacles as lighting load but they do actually realize that they are being used for all kinds of loads including electronic equipment scattered thruout the house. If anything, the 3VA per sq' figure is too small to cover the loads.

David
 

dnem

Senior Member
Location
Ohio
Pierre C Belarge said:
Dave.
220 is calculated loads for minimum usage, generally speaking.

In a dwelling, one can calculate the minimum load, and apply it towards BRANCH CIRCUITS. At that point, I can still install as many additional receptacles to the branch circuit as I desire, because there is no limit to the number of receptacles on a general lighting circuit. Unless known, there is no way of knowing what will be plugged into the receptacle installed.
One may install a wall full of receptacles on a branch circuit with the possiblity of not one receptacle being plugged into. The placement of receptacles is not related to the calculated load. What proves that point is the small appliance branch circuits... the kitchen, pantry, dining room and breakfast room can all be placed on 2 SAB circuits, the code does not place any restrictions as to the number of receptacles on these 2 circuits.
I have to disagree, Pierre

I don't have the same view of the relationship between calculated load and connected load as you do. You seem to divorce calculated load from connected load, but is that the right understanding ?

210.11 Branch Circuits Required. Branch circuits for lighting and for appliances, including motor-operated appliances, shall be provided to supply the loads calculated in accordance with 220.10.

210.11(B) [last sentence] Branch-circuit overcurrent devices and circuits shall only be required to be installed to serve the connected load.

How can both requirements make sense if the calculated load is completely independent of the connected load. I see the NEC as specifying that the calculated load is a part of the total connected load.

Calculated load plus actual load of equipment installed is total connected load.

There are amperage calculations for certain recepts such as 220.14(I)&(L) which effect the number that can be placed on one circuit. These plugs are calculated as 180va [or 1.5amp at 120v]. There is a limit as to how many 1.5amp plugs you can put on a 15 or 20 amp circuit.

So too, receptacles from 210.14(J)(1) are limited by Table 220.12 to only be able to cover specific amounts of square footage. The math with 3va per sq' works out to 0.025a per sq' which is 600 sq' for a 15a circuit and 800 sq' for a 20a circuit.

The Handbook page 106, blue type commentary sentence number 3, states that the term "general-use" in 220.14(J)(1) applies to both general illumination and small appliance circuits. So both general lighting/general purpose recepts as specified in 210.52(A) and small appliance 210.52(B) are both limited by Table 220.12 to 600 sq' per 15a circuit.

If you believe there isn't an enforcable connection between calculated and connected loads, post your reasoning and/or code articles that support that reasoning.

I'm very interested in finding a final resolution to this issue, as you can see by the fact that I have posted a great deal on this thread about this issue. I think it would be great to get a definitive answer.

David
 

peter d

Senior Member
Location
New England
dnem said:
If you believe there isn't an enforcable connection between calculated and connected loads, post your reasoning and/or code articles that support that reasoning.

We don't have to post any code sections to support this argument. The NEC is permissive. If it isn't explicitly forbidden, then it's allowed.

Bottom line, you will just have to look past these installations and move on. They are code compliant.
 

roger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Fl
Occupation
Retired Electrician
Dnem, another issue you'll need to overcome is that most instructional material being taught in the U.S. also teaches that there is no limit on the number of receptacles on residential general use branch circuits.

I looked at Mike Holt's and Tom Henry's exam prep material today at work and this is the case for both, be it direct or indirect language.

You certainly wouldn't want some young person to fail an exam because of your enforcing a limit that doesn't exist would you? :wink:

Roger
 

eric stromberg

Senior Member
Location
Texas
Roger,
You bring up an excellent point about the difference between the "real" world and passing an examination.

What is your experience with (off topic) conductor sizing? It seems to me that most exams i see expect someone to start in the 60deg column (with THHN) and then derate from there. So we end up teaching two methods. The wrong way, to pass the exam; and then the right way, to do in the real world.

When i get some spare time, one of my goals is to go to the exam writers/graders and try to show them 'a more perfect way.'

Any experience with this?

Eric :?
 

dnem

Senior Member
Location
Ohio
roger said:
Dnem, another issue you'll need to overcome is that most instructional material being taught in the U.S. also teaches that there is no limit on the number of receptacles on residential general use branch circuits.

I looked at Mike Holt's and Tom Henry's exam prep material today at work and this is the case for both, be it direct or indirect language.

You certainly wouldn't want some young person to fail an exam because of your enforcing a limit that doesn't exist would you? :wink:

Roger
"a limit that doesn't exist" ?

You're assuming that the limit doesn't exist just because test prep material says so. I've quoted NEC support above to show that a limit does exist. It may be a limit beyond what 99% of installors would think to go [600 or 800 sq' per circuit], but it's still a limit.

If the test graders have the wrong answer then they have the wrong answer.

David
 

dnem

Senior Member
Location
Ohio
peter d said:
dnem said:
If you believe there isn't an enforcable connection between calculated and connected loads, post your reasoning and/or code articles that support that reasoning.

We don't have to post any code sections to support this argument. The NEC is permissive. If it isn't explicitly forbidden, then it's allowed.

Bottom line, you will just have to look past these installations and move on. They are code compliant.
Yes, the NEC is permissive. If something isn't allowed it will say so. The dispute I would have with your post is the word "explictly".

The NEC has many examples of rules that are complicated and/or unclear. There are many requirements that are not "explicit".

I will agree that the debate on this thread is about a limit that is so high [600 sq' for 15a, 800 sq' for 20a] that no competent contractor would dream to wire a residence on just a handful of circuits. With all of the inspections that I do everyday, I probably won't run across another example of 4 bedrooms on one circuit for years to come. But next time it happens, I'll look at the size of the rooms and enforce a 600 square foot limit on a 15 amp circuit.

I believe the NEC supports this limit, not just as a calc, but as an enforcable rule.

David
 

roger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Fl
Occupation
Retired Electrician
dnem said:
I've quoted NEC support above to show that a limit does exist.
David

No you haven't.

Please repost the particular article and section that you think mandates this limit in a residential application.

It appears as though you are just refusing to change your way of thinking due to the fact that you have believed something to be true and enforced or installed to this belief "so it must be right".

Eric, I can't say that I agree that test are teaching the "wrong way" for conductor sizing.

What I see is that with no additional information to a conductor derating/size question, i.e. terminal temperature ratings, we would have to look at the NEC which would take the exam taker to 110.14(C)

Most test questions will include information on conductor insulation, ambients, conduit fill, bundling, etc... for derating questions, and in my experience, the tests always allowed the use of the proper column (90 deg if applicable) to start the adjustments from.

Do you have a particular exam question in mind?

I do admitt that not all test writers are correct in their wording of questions or answers, but I think most nationly recognized exam givers (atleast the ones I am familiar with) are correct in theirs.

Roger
 

dnem

Senior Member
Location
Ohio
roger said:
dnem said:
I've quoted NEC support above to show that a limit does exist.
David

No you haven't.

Please repost the particular article and section that you think mandates this limit in a residential application.

It appears as though you are just refusing to change your way of thinking due to the fact that you have believed something to be true and enforced or installed to this belief "so it must be right".
It appears as though you are just refusing to read what has already been posted above. So.....I'll post it again

210.11 Branch Circuits Required. Branch circuits for lighting and for appliances, including motor-operated appliances, shall be provided to supply the loads calculated in accordance with 220.10.


210.11(B) [last sentence] Branch-circuit overcurrent devices and circuits shall only be required to be installed to serve the connected load.

How can both requirements make sense if the calculated load is completely independent of the connected load. I see the NEC as specifying that the calculated load is a part of the total connected load.

Calculated load plus actual load of equipment installed is total connected load.

There are amperage calculations for certain recepts such as 220.14(I)&(L) which effect the number that can be placed on one circuit. These plugs are calculated as 180va [or 1.5amp at 120v]. There is a limit as to how many 1.5amp plugs you can put on a 15 or 20 amp circuit.

So too, receptacles from 210.14(J)(1) are limited by Table 220.12 to only be able to cover specific amounts of square footage. The math with 3va per sq' works out to 0.025a per sq' which is 600 sq' for a 15a circuit and 800 sq' for a 20a circuit.

The Handbook page 106, blue type commentary sentence number 3, states that the term "general-use" in 220.14(J)(1) applies to both general illumination and small appliance circuits. So both general lighting/general purpose recepts as specified in 210.52(A) and small appliance 210.52(B) are both limited by Table 220.12 to 600 sq' per 15a circuit.

If you believe there isn't an enforcable connection between calculated and connected loads, post your reasoning and/or code articles that support that reasoning.

David
 

roger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Fl
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Retired Electrician
You need to leave article 210 and focus on 220.

Article 210 is getting you off track, and as you have noted 210 directs you to 220.10 for calculating the loads anyways.

Now part II of 220 Branch Circuit Load Calculations, look at 220.10, it directs you to 220.12, which when you look at the "Dwelling Units" line you will notice it is actually "Dwelling Units? ", this takes you to the foot notes at the bottom of the table and the "?" directs you to 220.14(J)



220.14(J) Dwelling Occupancies In one-family, two-family, and multifamily dwellings and in guest rooms or guest suites of hotels and motels, the outlets specified in (J)(1), (J)(2), and (J)(3) are included in the general lighting load calculations of 220.12. No additional load calculations shall be required for such outlets.

(1) All general-use receptacle outlets of 20-ampere rating or less, including receptacles connected to the circuits in 210.11(C)(3)

(2) The receptacle outlets specified in 210.52(E) and (G)

(3) The lighting outlets specified in 210.70(A) and (B)

This tell us that these receptacle and lighting outlets are aready included in the sq ft VA calculations be it 1,2,3, 10, 100, 1000 outlets or more and no further calculations are needed, this is in contrast to the wording of 220.14(I) (which by the way excludes in specific wording 220.14(J)&(K) as well as SABC.s and Laundry Circuits) that specifically gives a caculation value to non Dweling Unit receptacle outlets. (those not not excluded in this article section)

In you own words tell why 220.14(J) is needed if CMP # 5 intended receptacle outlets in Dwelling Units to be calculated per 220.14(I).

Roger
 

George Stolz

Moderator
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Location
Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
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Service Manager
dnem said:
georgestolz said:
220.14(I) specifically references SABC's and Laundry, and specifically excludes them from this rule. SABC's and Laundry circuits are specifically supplying receptacle outlets, that have no other outlets. You will find no "other outlets" (220.14(L)) on these circuits to calculate. So the only section you could apply to them is 220.14(I), which specifically excludes them by name.
It seems that the Handbook doesn't agree with you.
I can't help it if the Handbook bozos aren't as smart as I am. :lol:
 

dnem

Senior Member
Location
Ohio
You've really lost me here.
This whole first part of your post is totally in agreement with everything I've been saying.
roger said:
You need to leave article 210 and focus on 220.

Article 210 is getting you off track, and as you have noted 210 directs you to 220.10 for calculating the loads anyways.

Now part II of 220 Branch Circuit Load Calculations, look at 220.10, it directs you to 220.12, which when you look at the "Dwelling Units" line you will notice it is actually "Dwelling Units? ", this takes you to the foot notes at the bottom of the table and the "?" directs you to 220.14(J)



220.14(J) Dwelling Occupancies In one-family, two-family, and multifamily dwellings and in guest rooms or guest suites of hotels and motels, the outlets specified in (J)(1), (J)(2), and (J)(3) are included in the general lighting load calculations of 220.12. No additional load calculations shall be required for such outlets.

(1) All general-use receptacle outlets of 20-ampere rating or less, including receptacles connected to the circuits in 210.11(C)(3)

(2) The receptacle outlets specified in 210.52(E) and (G)

(3) The lighting outlets specified in 210.70(A) and (B)

This tell us that these receptacle and lighting outlets are aready included in the sq ft VA calculations be it 1,2,3, 10, 100, 1000 outlets or more and no further calculations are needed, this is in contrast to the wording of 220.14(I) (which by the way excludes in specific wording 220.14(J)&(K) as well as SABC.s and Laundry Circuits) that specifically gives a caculation value to non Dweling Unit receptacle outlets. (those not not excluded in this article section)
Then you add this last sentence that seems to go in a completely different direction.
roger said:
In you own words tell why 220.14(J) is needed if CMP # 5 intended receptacle outlets in Dwelling Units to be calculated per 220.14(I).

Roger
You just got done agreeing with me that Dwelling Units are calculated per 220.14(J) [which is linked to square footage of Table 220.12]. You don't think 220.14(I) applies and neither do I. General-use dwelling unit recepts fall under 220.14(J) which refers to Table 220.12 which specifies 3va per sq'.

I totally agree with you that there's no 1,2,3, 10, 100, 1000 outlet limits. The limits are square footage.

At this point, I don't know what about my post you disagree with. Your other posts seem to state that you reject any limit of any kind on dwelling unit circuit sizes. In your last post you seem to accept a 3va per square foot limit. If that's true, then we're in agreement.

David
 

dlhoule

Senior Member
Location
Michigan
There are amperage calculations for certain recepts such as 220.14(I)&(L) which effect the number that can be placed on one circuit. These plugs are calculated as 180va [or 1.5amp at 120v]. There is a limit as to how many 1.5amp plugs you can put on a 15 or 20 amp circuit.

Hi David, I'm flexible on this and many more issues. Are you saying that I am limited to 10 plugs on a 15 amp circuit. So that in my 15' x 15' foot bedroom I can't have my 12 plugs and light all on my 15 amp circuit.
 

roger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Fl
Occupation
Retired Electrician
David, I am happy that we are in agreement, I guess I misunderstood what you were getting at.

Just to make sure I'm on your page let's revisit your 10,000 sq ft house and use 20 amp circuits.

After the required SA, Laundry, and Bath room circuits you will need to supply the house with 13 General Use Branch circuits, agreed?

The receptacles supplied by these circuits must be spaced per the requirements of 210.52, this would be the minimum number of receptacles required, agreed?

After we have covered the above we can add as many receptacles as we want to these 13 circuits even if the total reaches say 30 (or more) receptacles per circuit, agreed?

So in short, you are not saying that you are trying to use/enforce 180 va for each receptacle in a Dwelling Unit, correct?

If that is what you are saying, then all I can say is Oooooops :)

Roger
 
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