Max number of recepts per circuit

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scwirenut

Senior Member
there is absolutley no limit on general purpose recepts, and for good reason, one example would be scenario (a) in a bedroom or livingroom, i installed one recept. as a result occupants will use desired equiptment(tv, vcr, clock radio, electric blanket, playstation, stereo, ect. all using extension cords.....scenerio (b).. I install 1000 receptacles stacked side by side up and down, as a result the occupants will not use even one extra watt. than before. as homeowners we use what we have and need regardless, extra outlets beyond spacing requirements are simply for convienance .
 

colosparker

Senior Member
scwirenut said:
there is absolutley no limit on general purpose recepts, and for good reason, one example would be scenario (a) in a bedroom or livingroom, i installed one recept. as a result occupants will use desired equiptment(tv, vcr, clock radio, electric blanket, playstation, stereo, ect. all using extension cords.....scenerio (b).. I install 1000 receptacles stacked side by side up and down, as a result the occupants will not use even one extra watt. than before. as homeowners we use what we have and need regardless, extra outlets beyond spacing requirements are simply for convienance .

scwirenut,

What about 1000 bedrooms and livingrooms and all the receptacles on the same circuit???
 

scwirenut

Senior Member
first of all, a house even 1/10 that size would have drawn plans we would have to install by. back to the example as with the four rooms on a circuit, I myself as well as anyone here believe it to be irresponsible to such a thing, however it is not a nec violation. what is the worst thing that could happen?(not advocating this practice). you overload the circuit and the breaker trips. homeowners cut off some lights and go about buisness., this is a design issue not a material or personaL saftey issue. at best the inspector could bring it to the GC attention, but thats it. I would never do this in a house, but if i did the electrical inspector could not stop me., again not advocating, but I know of many manufactured homes wired just as this, one circuit strechting 3 or 4 rooms with recepts and all., homeowners can only use so much at a time.
 

electric_instructor

Senior Member
NO residential Requirments!

NO residential Requirments!

How many of us, electricians, inspectors, or otherwise REALLY read the NEC code?

Might I ask EVERYONE in this thread to refere to the MAIN chapter of the NEC?

Try looking at page 70-23, of the 2005 NEC codes. The codes are placed in order of IMPORTANCE, and these are THE VERY FIRST CODES!

Article 90.1 (a);
"PRACTICAL SAFEGUARDING!

and 90.1 (b);
ADEQUACY. Specially THIS ONE!!!!!!
Compliance therewith, and proper maintenance results in an installation that is essentially free from hazard but NOT neccessarily efficient, convient, or adequate for good service or future expansion of electrical use!
SEE FPN:

AND 90.1 (c);
INTENTION. THIS CODE IS NOT INTENDED AS A DESIGN SPECIFICATION OR AN INSTRUCTION MANUAL FOR UNTRAINED PERSONS!

NOW, who wants to argue THAT point? Which of us is UNTRAINED???? :lol:
 

peter d

Senior Member
Location
New England
Re: NO residential Requirments!

Re: NO residential Requirments!

electric_instructor said:
The codes are placed in order of IMPORTANCE, and these are THE VERY FIRST CODES!

That makes no logical sense whatsoever. By your logic, article 760 isn't very important because it's all the way in the back of the book. Think about it!
 

roger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Fl
Occupation
Retired Electrician
Peter, electric-instructor's therory would also mean wiring in hazzardous areas and hospitals aren't very important. :lol:


Roger
 

peter d

Senior Member
Location
New England
roger said:
Peter, electric-instructor's therory would also mean wiring in hazzardous areas and hospitals aren't very important. :lol:


Roger

Yeah, you're right Roger. I guess we can wire hospitals with lamp cord from now on. :lol: :lol:
 

peter d

Senior Member
Location
New England
Re: NO residential Requirments!

Re: NO residential Requirments!

electric_instructor said:
The codes are placed in order of IMPORTANCE, and these are THE VERY FIRST CODES!

Electic Instrcutor, I certainly hope you are not teaching this faulty idea to your students. :shock:
 

colosparker

Senior Member
scwirenut said:
I would never do this in a house, but if i did the electrical inspector could not stop me., again not advocating, but I know of many manufactured homes wired just as this, one circuit strechting 3 or 4 rooms with recepts and all., homeowners can only use so much at a time.

I know of many electrical inspectors that can stop you. Most urban areas with local AHJ's have rules that limit the number of openings on a branch circuit in a residence. For the most part it is a common sense thing. Why argue the point that the NEC has no set number, when we all agree smart, educated, well informed electricians do know there is a practical common sense number of receptacles on a branch cicuit regardless of whether or not it is spelled out in black and white in the NEC.
 
Electrical Instructor

"Might I ask EVERYONE in this thread to refere to the MAIN chapter of the NEC?

Try looking at page 70-23, of the 2005 NEC codes. The codes are placed in order of IMPORTANCE, and these are THE VERY FIRST CODES! "


I did not know there was a MAIN chapter in the NEC. Chapters are large and cover a tremendous amount of territory...

Where do you see that the codes are placed in order of IMPORTANCE?

If I was working at a pool, is not Art 680 of the most importance, or a place of assembly, would not Art 518 be of most importance, how about a service, would not Art 230 be important? Do you see how we need to move around the NEC in order to locate what may be required?


Maybe you were not able to convey to us what your actual thoughts were in that post. You should try again, so we can try to understand you.
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
This thread may go the way of the "is a switch an outlet?" thread if we're not careful! :p


If a 15-amp circuit ls limited to supplying no more than 600 sq.ft., is the quantity of rooms, or more specifically, the linear wall space, relevant? Does it matter whether we're talking about one large room, say 20' x 30', or several rooms, say 4 rooms at 10' x 15' each?

Ignoring window and door openings (or assuming ideal positioning of these), one 20' x 30' room would have a total wall length of (2*20 + 2*30) 100 feet, requiring a minimum of (100/12 = 8.33) nine receptacles. One 15a circuit covers this easily, right?

The same area divided into four equally-sized rooms would have a total wall length of ((2*10 + 2*15)*4) 200 feet, requiring a minimum of (200/12 = 16.67) 17 receptacles. One circuit? Would this be code-compliant? Depends on who you ask, apparently.

I have not seen anyone claim that, to be compliant, you must have both no more than 600 sq.ft. per 15a circuit and no more than 13 receptacles. What if I wanted a receptacle every 2 feet? A 10'x15' room would require 2 circuits.

That would exceed the 600 sq.ft.-per-circuit requirement. Four such rooms would require a total of 8 circuits. But wait! I thought we could supply 600 sq.ft. with one 15a circuit. Well, is it area or quantity? It can't be both.

Apparently, it's not just a 13-receptacle-per-circuit limit, nor an area-based limit. It must depend on somethimng else, something much less arbitrary. How about basing it on expected use? What about lighting?

Does it matter if a circuit supplies both ceiling and receptacle outlets, or only receptacle outlets? What happens then? Do we use the outlet-quantity limit or the area-served limit? Is there a limit on ceiling outlets per circuit?

Or should we calculate each circuit's load using expected loading? I can see placing two or three bedrooms' receptacles on one circuit if the lighting is separate, or perhaps one entire room on one cicruit, but how big is a room?

There are general-purpose cicruits, and then there are specific loads that are ubiquitous, and may or may not be too much for a GP circuit. Bathrooms require 20a receptacle circuits, yet hair dryers are often used in bedrooms.

50 to 75 years ago, one or two circuits was enough for most of a house, since lighting was the major load, appliance circuits aside. Now, lighting is a fraction of an entire residence's load. What has changed over the yeras?

It seems that the quantityof receptacles per circuit is about the same; just the area served by each circuit has reduced. Why? We have increased our electrical usage by surrounding ourselves with appliances and electronics.

Who knows what the future holds? We could argue that efficiency of electrical use will increase, and we shouldn't have to supply electricity as "densely" as we do now. We just have to go by what we have now, even though most people don't use half of their service's capacity, just in case.


Okay, my fingers and brain are competing for blood supply, so I'm taking a break. Later!
 

peter d

Senior Member
Location
New England
LarryFine said:
50 to 75 years ago, one or two circuits was enough for most of a house, since lighting was the major load, appliance circuits aside. Now, lighting is a fraction of an entire residence's load. What has changed over the yeras?

In my area, the majority of the housing stock is from this time period, and the majority of it is still operating with the original wiring, which includes many homes that only have 2-4 15-amp circuits for the entire home, including the kitchen. There are many apartments that have only have 1 or 2 15-amp general purpose circuits as well, plus a circuit for the furnace and maybe the fridge.


What am I trying to say? The current NEC requirements are extremely adequate for today's needs. The code does not need to add square footage or device restrictions. Residential circuits are generally lightly loaded and there will almost never be a continuous load on any branch circuit.
 

scwirenut

Senior Member
colosparker said:
scwirenut said:
I would never do this in a house, but if i did the electrical inspector could not stop me., again not advocating, but I know of many manufactured homes wired just as this, one circuit strechting 3 or 4 rooms with recepts and all., homeowners can only use so much at a time.

I know of many electrical inspectors that can stop you. Most urban areas with local AHJ's have rules that limit the number of openings on a branch circuit in a residence.


I should have said in South Carolina where the state has adopted the NEC. I know of only 2 counties in this state that have opted out, So pretty much the entire state uses NEC. That means unless he can present me with a article # in writing of an officially adopted amendment he better get to walking. when I first started doing this business everyone would say, "oh you better watch out for the inspectors in this town, or this town, or this town, because they were used to doing whatever the inspectors said, the inspectors were used to getting there way, . As educated contractors we should not allow this. I didnt. and have locally changed the entire building dept.s way of thinking. I put them to the mat on countless issues that were not violations, in the begining(first year) they hated me, I made countless trips to the city planning dept. meeting with every official eventually embarrassed the whole lot of them at city/county meetings, now I earned there respect through knowledge and we all get along like family. where ever you reside in any state or local, always ask them to "show me in writing". even the smallest of towns have laws. the AHJ can only enforces them.
 

colosparker

Senior Member
scwirenut said:
colosparker said:
scwirenut said:
I would never do this in a house, but if i did the electrical inspector could not stop me., again not advocating, but I know of many manufactured homes wired just as this, one circuit strechting 3 or 4 rooms with recepts and all., homeowners can only use so much at a time.

I know of many electrical inspectors that can stop you. Most urban areas with local AHJ's have rules that limit the number of openings on a branch circuit in a residence.


I should have said in South Carolina where the state has adopted the NEC. I know of only 2 counties in this state that have opted out, So pretty much the entire state uses NEC. That means unless he can present me with a article # in writing of an officially adopted amendment he better get to walking. when I first started doing this business everyone would say, "oh you better watch out for the inspectors in this town, or this town, or this town, because they were used to doing whatever the inspectors said, the inspectors were used to getting there way, . As educated contractors we should not allow this. I didnt. and have locally changed the entire building dept.s way of thinking. I put them to the mat on countless issues that were not violations, in the begining(first year) they hated me, I made countless trips to the city planning dept. meeting with every official eventually embarrassed the whole lot of them at city/county meetings, now I earned there respect through knowledge and we all get along like family. where ever you reside in any state or local, always ask them to "show me in writing". even the smallest of towns have laws. the AHJ can only enforces them.

I can see that in a small town in South Carolina, but I don't see it working with a large urban AHJ that has adopted their own rules for electrical installations in their jurisdiction. Granted a mistake by an electrical inspector is a mistake and should be called, but I refer to adopted rules and regualtions above and beyond the NEC (not mistakes) Good for you though.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
colosparker said:
I know of many electrical inspectors that can stop you. Most urban areas with local AHJ's have rules that limit the number of openings on a branch circuit in a residence.

Maybe where you come from but not where I work and I do not live in the country by a long shot. :lol:

colosparker said:
For the most part it is a common sense thing. Why argue the point that the NEC has no set number, when we all agree smart, educated, well informed electricians do know there is a practical common sense number of receptacles on a branch cicuit regardless of whether or not it is spelled out in black and white in the NEC.

Because that practical number is different in each application and having a local AHJ pick an arbitrary number is ridiculous.

Think of one single bedroom, say it's 12' x 15', the amount of 'stuff' people place in that room will be dependent on the size of the room not the number of outlets.

If I put in the code minimum outlets or line the walls with outlets every 6" the actual load will be the same. 8)
 

roger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Fl
Occupation
Retired Electrician
Colosparker, I happen to know Iwire works in large Urban Areas. :)

It really doesn't matter where we work, an inspector can not make up his/her own rules. If there are codes in place, the inspector can (must) enforce them, no more no less, end of story.


Roger
 
In dwelling units, we are required to calculate the LOAD per square feet.
For that I need to reference Art 220

Calculating the load helps us to determine the size of the service, the feeders and the size and number of branch circuits.

Calculating the load in a dwelling does not tell me how many receptacles I need in the dwelling.
For that I need to reference Art 210.

Because people tend to use the dwelling space differently than other types of occupancies, there are more requirements as to the placement of receptacles.
Therefore there is no requirement for the number of receptacles for a branch circuit.

I have a room, it could be any room in the dwelling. The minimum placement of the receptacles is not based on the calculated load, it is based on linear wall measurement. Now there are no restrictions if one should desire to add receptacles to the said room. The NEC does not say that a person needs to increase the size of the branch circuit or the feeder or the service based on the number of receptacles in a dwelling. If it does, please state the specific code reference that states so.

Now if you see a design issue or just have the desire to increase the number of branch circuits, go ahead... it is not required though.


BTW: take a walk around a house one day and notice the number of receptacles that are not used... how about the ones that are used, is the load that is plugged in on? How often is that load used, with the other loads that are also on the same circuit?
What if I place receptacles in the family room with the receptacles in the livingroom or bedroom... in these large homes today, they may never be used simultaneously.
 

dnem

Senior Member
Location
Ohio
LarryFine said:
This thread may go the way of the "is a switch an outlet?" thread if we're not careful!
I'm not familiar with that thread or know what you mean but I am getting tired of this discussion that resembles a dog chasing its tail. The same questions are being asked repeatedly.
You're post brings up a few good points that haven't really been covered yet.
LarryFine said:
The same area divided into four equally-sized rooms would have a total wall length of ((2*10 + 2*15)*4) 200 feet, requiring a minimum of (200/12 = 16.67) 17 receptacles. One circuit? Would this be code-compliant? Depends on who you ask, apparently.

I have not seen anyone claim that, to be compliant, you must have both no more than 600 sq.ft. per 15a circuit and no more than 13 receptacles. What if I wanted a receptacle every 2 feet? A 10'x15' room would require 2 circuits.

That would exceed the 600 sq.ft.-per-circuit requirement. Four such rooms would require a total of 8 circuits. But wait! I thought we could supply 600 sq.ft. with one 15a circuit. Well, is it area or quantity? It can't be both.
According to the NEC it is square footage only.
LarryFine said:
Does it matter if a circuit supplies both ceiling and receptacle outlets, or only receptacle outlets? What happens then? Do we use the outlet-quantity limit or the area-served limit? Is there a limit on ceiling outlets per circuit?
That's a good question.
And the reason that this question has come up is because of the shortcut some of us have been using. In order to explain things quickly, we are referring to "600 sq' per circuit". But the 600 sq' measurement is not in the NEC, the 3va per' measurement is. [Table 220.12]

3va is the same as 0.025a in a 120v circuit.
The 600 sq' measurement came from: 600x0.025=15.
So the 600 number is based on the 15 amp breaker.
But if you combine hardwired lighting on the same 15a circuit as plugs you no longer have 15a for the plugs. According to 220.14(D), you count the hardwired light fixture according to the max watts it's rated for. Divide by 120v to get the amps and subtract that from 15 to find out how much of the circuit is left for plugs.

If you have a 600watt chandelier, it uses 5amps of your 120 volt circuit.
The 15 amp circuit now only has 10 amps left.
400x0.025=10
You only have 400 sq' of general-use general lighting/general purpose area left for that circuit.

The total number of plugs within that 400 sq' doesn't matter at all. You've got your 600watt chandelier and 400 sq' of area on your 15 amp circuit. As long as the area has the minimal number of plugs required by 210.52(A)(1)&(A)(2)(1), you circuit is code compliant. There is no maximum number of plugs within that 400 sq' area.

There is no maximum number of plugs per circuit.
There is a maximum square foot area served per circuit.

But .....
as I stated above, that square footage has to be reduced by the wattage of the hardwired lights on that circuit.

David
 

George Stolz

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
Occupation
Service Manager
dnem said:
There is no maximum number of plugs per circuit.
There is a maximum square foot area served per circuit.

I hadn't looked into this one in a while, good to see progress. :)

dnem said:
But .....
as I stated above, that square footage has to be reduced by the wattage of the hardwired lights on that circuit.
No, the title of the table is "General Lighting Load" and 220.14(J) injects receptacles into that mix. The calculation is the minimum required lighting load, and receptacles are an afterthought.

Is there some maximum to what an area should be illuminated with, versus what is actually installed? No.
 

colosparker

Senior Member
roger said:
Colosparker, I happen to know Iwire works in large Urban Areas. :)

It really doesn't matter where we work, an inspector can not make up his/her own rules. If there are codes in place, the inspector can (must) enforce them, no more no less, end of story.


Roger

Roger,

Read the posts before you write replies. I never said anything about inspectors making up their own rules.

Dave
 
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