kitchen wall receptacle

[malachi constant]

My opinion, of course, does not matter. The opinion of the AHJ is the only one that counts. You might try passing your concept by the person who will inspect your work, before you commit yourself to a plan that would cost you extra money, if and when it fails.

Charlie - Yeah, I plan to do that. Just trying to flesh out an argument here before I get there. Plus, if this forum were to convince me I am wrong, I don't have to bother bringing it up. I suppose I should drop it since at this point we are merely butting heads.

Once you get to the cabinets, you are no longer governed by the 6 foot rule of 210.52(A)(1). Rather, you are governed by the rule concerning ?wall counter spaces,? as described in 210.52(C)(1).

The space above the counter is governed by 250.52.C.1. Logically that doesn't mean that the space above the counter cannot be included in 210.52.A.1. This is the heart of our disagreement - this and the definition of "floor line", whether it extends through a counter or not. Code doesn't say.

I remember very clearly having a similar discussion at the Southern Sectional Meeting of the IAEI in Cocoa Florida. What I learned was that any receptacle that is located between 12 inches below and 20 inches above a counter top belongs to that counter top and nothing else.

JW - Do you have a code reference for that?

As far as having to eat crow, I am all for being proven wrong. I don't want to go through life being one of "those" guys...

 

[George Stolz]

I too agree with Mr. Beck's explanation, he sums it up well.

I remember very clearly having a similar discussion at the Southern Sectional Meeting of the IAEI in Cocoa Florida. What I learned was that any receptacle that is located between 12 inches below and 20 inches above a counter top belongs to that counter top and nothing else.

Mike, that is a very handy rule of thumb for a uniform interpretation and enforcement policy for inspectors. However, I would not say that the code says that and can be read only that way.

(Charlie's Rule.)

If a receptacle is installed in that zone for some other purpose, and it's stated that "this receptacle is to serve the __________ , not the countertop" then it is up to the AHJ to use their 90.4 discretion to agree or disagree. It is within the AHJ's power to agree with the installer and state that the receptacle in the zone is not to serve countertops, and as such the rules change radically.

In your case, the IAEI is saying "we believe the inspectors in the field should disagree and proclaim it a countertop receptacle regardless of intended use." Which, frankly, is an understandable position to take. Much easier to remember. Someone from the IAEI should propose similar language and make it easier on us all.

 

[George Stolz]

Charlie - Yeah, I plan to do that. Just trying to flesh out an argument here before I get there. Plus, if this forum were to convince me I am wrong, I don't have to bother bringing it up. I suppose I should drop it since at this point we are merely butting heads.

Don't drop it because there's a disagreement. Disagreement is what educates. Think back on the thread I linked to. If I had gotten my way to agree to disagree in the first place, then I never would be been corrected, and I'd still be walking around thinking I had a viable read on the section that was wrong.

The space above the counter is governed by 250.52.C.1. Logically that doesn't mean that the space above the counter cannot be included in 210.52.A.1. This is the heart of our disagreement - this and the definition of "floor line", whether it extends through a counter or not. Code doesn't say.

It doesn't have to say, MC. Logically, of what use would a receptacle be inside a wall space that was concealed by cabinetry? The wall space must follow the accessible wall along the floor line. It would turn 90 degrees where a cabinet touches the drywalled wall, and possibly cruise along the cabinet. There can be no "wall space" behind a cabinet, IMO.

As far as having to eat crow, I am all for being proven wrong. I don't want to go through life being one of "those" guys...

You've seen enough of them to get nauseous too, ey?

 

[malachi constant]

There can be no "wall space" behind a cabinet, IMO.

That's not just your opinion, that is code. Code defines "wall space". What code doesn't define is "floor line".

General opinion here is that "floor line" is defined as you described - either turning 90 degrees when the wall meets a cabinet, or else terminating. My definition is that since the floor still meets the wall - and it does, we know this as fact - the floor line is still there. And if a receptacle is located above this floor line, and it is not listed per the excluded receptacles in 210.52, then it can cover the wall space. It's an argument that, in this case, meets both the letter and the heart of the code.

Where it fails to meet the heart of the code is when you get to a 24-inch wall between door openings. Even though I think my interpretation meets the letter of the code, I would hesitate to apply it to the door opening example - because an extension cord would be required and this would not meet the code's intent.

And yes, I know plenty of them. I've been blessed enough to not have to work with any of them on a regular basis though.

 

[jwelectric]

The space above the counter is governed by 250.52.C.1. Logically that doesn't mean that the space above the counter cannot be included in 210.52.A.1.

In 210.52 there is a requirement to install receptacles in eight different locations. We are only discussing two of these so I will limit my response to these two and leave out (A), (D), (E), (F), (G) and (H) and only address (B) and (C).

Section (B) of 210.52 addresses the small appliance circuits and the receptacles they are to supply. Subsection (B)(1) mandates the receptacles that are to be supplied by the small appliance circuits and mentions two separate places, those outlined in 210.52(A) and those outlined in 210.52(C).
Why would it mention two different places if one could count for the other?

This is the heart of our disagreement - this and the definition of "floor line", whether it extends through a counter or not. Code doesn't say.

I believe that the code is very clear as to the floor line. 210.52(B)(1) refers to 210.52(A) and in (A)(1) we are told “that no point MEASURED horizontally along the floor line in any wall space”
Now I just don’t see how the floor line can be measured through a cabinet. Once we rise to the top of the cabinet to measure we are measuring the countertop not the floor line.

JW - Do you have a code reference for that?

Yes, 210.52(C)(5) and the exception

If a receptacle is installed in that zone for some other purpose, and it's stated that "this receptacle is to serve the __________ , not the countertop" then it is up to the AHJ to use their 90.4 discretion to agree or disagree. It is within the AHJ's power to agree with the installer and state that the receptacle in the zone is not to serve countertops, and as such the rules change radically.

Care needs to be taken when quoting 90.4. There is a BIG misconception as to what is being said in this section of the code. Careful reading of the first sentence will clearly show that the term as used in NOT referring to the inspector but instead to the governmental body responsible for adopting the NEC. To give this much power to one person there would be no need to have a code.

In your case, the IAEI is saying "we believe the inspectors in the field should disagree and proclaim it a countertop receptacle regardless of intended use." Which, frankly, is an understandable position to take. Much easier to remember. Someone from the IAEI should propose similar language and make it easier on us all.

At this meeting I sat at a table with Jim Carpenter(chair of the TCC), Ron Chilton (panel 13), Jim Pauley (panel 2), David Mercier (panel 7) and Mark Ode (TCC, panel 3, panel 4, and UL).
Now when it comes to who is who I do believe when these people all agree on something that even EF Hutton would listen.
Each and every one of them took a turn in explaining the countertop receptacles and squelching my belief that a 15 amp circuit could supply a receptacle over a countertop to supply a under cabinet light.
Any receptacle that is located 12 inches below to 20 inches above is a countertop receptacle ONLY and is ruled by 210.52(C) and the five subsections outlined there-in.

Edited to add:

As outlined in 210.52(G) I will install a 20 amp circuit with a GFCI duplex receptacle in my garage.
One half of this duplex is for the required garage receptacle and the other half is for the washing machine.
one is as good as the other.

 

[charlie b]

My definition is that since the floor still meets the wall - and it does, we know this as fact - the floor line is still there.

We know no such thing as "fact." The floor does not meet the wall, it meets the cabinet. A "wall space" is a space that is not broken along the floor line. When you get to the cabinets, the "space" is broken, by the base of the cabinet. There is wall behind the cabinet, but you can't see it, because the cabinet hides it. So the wall that is behind the cabinet is not part of the "wall space."

 

[malachi constant]

Section (B) of 210.52 addresses the small appliance circuits and the receptacles they are to supply. Subsection (B)(1) mandates the receptacles that are to be supplied by the small appliance circuits and mentions two separate places, those outlined in 210.52(A) and those outlined in 210.52(C). Why would it mention two different places if one could count for the other?

Because some kitchens have wall space as defined in 210.52(A) that are not covered by receptacles in 210.52(C). Sometimes C covers A, as in my situation, but not always.

I believe that the code is very clear as to the floor line. 210.52(B)(1) refers to 210.52(A) and in (A)(1) we are told ?that no point MEASURED horizontally along the floor line in any wall space?
Now I just don?t see how the floor line can be measured through a cabinet. Once we rise to the top of the cabinet to measure we are measuring the countertop not the floor line.

It is not difficult to project the hidden floor line up a few feet. If a receptacle is above a countertop you can easily measure horizontally along (or parallel to) the floor line to see if it covers a given wall space. It doesn't require any imagination or speculation to do so.

JW - Do you have a code reference for that? Yes, 210.52(C)(5) and the exception.

This may prohibit using an above-counter receptacle to feed an undercabinet light, but I don't see anything here that prohibits an above-counter receptacle covering wall space as required in 210.52(A).

Each and every one of them took a turn in explaining the countertop receptacles and squelching my belief that a 15 amp circuit could supply a receptacle over a countertop to supply a under cabinet light.
Any receptacle that is located 12 inches below to 20 inches above is a countertop receptacle ONLY and is ruled by 210.52(C) and the five subsections outlined there-in.

Are we talking about two different things here? I think we're talking about two different things.

Man, I am spending way too much time here this week! Have a great weekend everyone, thanks for the discussion. Maybe I'll fire up the ol' PC Sunday and see if everyone agrees with me yet.

 

[malachi constant]

We know no such thing as "fact." The floor does not meet the wall, it meets the cabinet. A "wall space" is a space that is not broken along the floor line. When you get to the cabinets, the "space" is broken, by the base of the cabinet. There is wall behind the cabinet, but you can't see it, because the cabinet hides it. So the wall that is behind the cabinet is not part of the "wall space."

Somewhere underneath that cabinet, the floor meets the wall. We know that as fact. And I shouldn't say "somewhere" as if it is a guess - we know exactly where floor meets wall.

Or at least I do. Maybe you guys opted out of Projecting Floor Lines 101 and took a humanities instead. Peace.

 

[jwelectric]

Because some kitchens have wall space as defined in 210.52(A) that are not covered by receptacles in 210.52(C). Sometimes C covers A, as in my situation, but not always.

If (C) could ever cover (A) then there would be no need to have (A)

It is not difficult to project the hidden floor line up a few feet. If a receptacle is above a countertop you can easily measure horizontally along (or parallel to) the floor line to see if it covers a given wall space. It doesn't require any imagination or speculation to do so.

When you move UP to measure parallel then you are not measuring the floor line you are measuring the counter top/

This may prohibit using an above-counter receptacle to feed an undercabinet light, but I don't see anything here that prohibits an above-counter receptacle covering wall space as required in 210.52(A).

The countertop and the wall space are two different places as outlined in (A) and (C). As to the undercabinet light that would plug into the countertop receptacle there is no code violation

Are we talking about two different things here? I think we're talking about two different things.

No, I am addressing the receptacles that are located 12 inches down and 20 inches above the countertop. These receptacles are for the countertop and the countertop only.

Listen to Charlie he is trying to guide you in the right direction.

 

[JohnE]

MC, I think some of us here have been around and around and around on this topic. Charlie and Mike are feeding you the right info.

John

 

[George Stolz]

Care needs to be taken when quoting 90.4. There is a BIG misconception as to what is being said in this section of the code. Careful reading of the first sentence will clearly show that the term as used in NOT referring to the inspector but instead to the governmental body responsible for adopting the NEC.

If you read my response carefully, you'll see I understand that and very artfully addressed it. If no fireworks occur at the inspector's level, then the AHJ will not have to make a ruling.

At this meeting I sat at a table with Jim Carpenter(chair of the TCC), Ron Chilton (panel 13), Jim Pauley (panel 2), David Mercier (panel 7) and Mark Ode (TCC, panel 3, panel 4, and UL). Now when it comes to who is who I do believe when these people all agree on something that even EF Hutton would listen.

Each and every one of them took a turn in explaining the countertop receptacles and squelching my belief that a 15 amp circuit could supply a receptacle over a countertop to supply a under cabinet light.

They are an impressive group. But I don't care if you had brunch with the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, it doesn't change the words (unless by divine intervention ).

"To serve" language casts a large shadow on the 'facts'. It's adding a vague verb that can easily be twisted.

I agree with John, Mike and Charlie. Wall space ends at the cabinet. There's no logical way for it to work otherwise.

 

[Pierre C Belarge]

Malachi

Lets take a square room. There is "wall line' around the entire room [exclusive of doorway(s)]. Now we introduce cabinets for the kitchen on one wall. Technically the "wall line" does not disappear. But for the purposes of 210.52(C), the wall line does disappear, and the countertop becomes the rule.

I know the receptacles serving the countertop are not more the 5-1/2 feet above the floor, but they are there to serve the countertop.



As an example to help show the difference of the two areas we are discussing.

There is a cabinet that ends on the left side of a wall. There is 12 feet of open wall space. Then another cabinet starts on the right side of the open wall space.
The open wall space requires 1 receptacle, installed at 6 feet from the end of each cabinet. The two cabinets have receptacles installed 2 feet from the start of the cabinet.

This arrangement would space the receptacles more than six feet apart (8ft), but that is okay, as there are different requirements for the spacing of receptacles for the two different areas. Thus we have now delineated the two areas from each other, requardless of the floor line.

 

[LarryFine]

This arrangement would space the receptacles more than six feet apart (8ft), but that is okay, as there are different requirements for the spacing of receptacles for the two different areas.

It would be okay anyway, since the requirement would allow 12 ft between this single centered wall-area receptacle and its nearest wall-space neighbors, if the counter receptacles qualified, which they don't.

Now, if that wall space was wider than 12 ft, two wall receptacles would be required, even if that placed the wall and counter receptacles as little as 1 ft apart, again because the counter receptacles don't qualify.

 

[iwire]

Now, if that wall space was wider than 12 ft, two wall receptacles would be required, even if that placed the wall and counter receptacles as little as 1 ft apart, again because the counter receptacles don't qualify.

Why don't the counter receptacles 'qualify'?

As long as they are less than 5' - 6" of the floor I think they could count as a wall receptacle.

 

[LarryFine]

Why don't the counter receptacles 'qualify'?

As long as they are less than 5' - 6" of the floor I think they could count as a wall receptacle.

Isn't this where we came in?

I thought we have been discussing, and agreeing, that counter receptacles only satisfy counter-receptacle requirements, and that wall-space receptacles only satisfy wall-space-receptacle requirements.

And that the wall space effectively ends where the cabinets start.

 

[iwire]

Isn't this where we came in?

Is it, I thought we started with what a floor line is?

 

[iwire]

OK Larry I follow you now, I went back and reread the beginning.