kitchen wall receptacle

[malachi constant]

I'm design an apartment kitchen. South wall of kitchen has fridge, range, and all the countertops. Counter runs up against east wall, and near it's end has a receptacle a few inches above it.

To the north, separated from the counter front by 3'-5", is the kitchen peninsula. The peninsula has a receptacle mounted on the wall just above it.

My question is, is a receptacle required on the wall between the peninsula and counter?

At first glance it is required by the general provisions of 210.52.A and 210.52.A.2.1. But, if I am reading it correctly, 210.52 allows the countertop and peninsula receptacles to be counted as being within 6' feet horizontally from any given point along the unbroken wall between counter and peninsula.

This seems pretty reasonable to me both with my interpretation of code and in a practical sense - there's not much that would get plugged into a receptacle located on the wall between the cabinetry, and if something WAS to need plugged in, its cord should reach to the receptacles on either side.

Thoughts?

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

I dont think any of us can follow what your saying.Wall space needs to have outlets .

 

[allenwayne]

I think i see the question.There is a wall space next to the counter top and the counter top receptacle is within 6 ft of the opening.So can it be used to satisfy spacing requirements.Yes.

 

[charlie b]

There is a wall space next to the counter top and the counter top receptacle is within 6 ft of the opening. So can it be used to satisfy spacing requirements. Yes.

I do not agree. Instead, I agree with Jim.

Wall space needs to have outlets .

Kitchens are on the list of rooms, as shown in 210.52, that need receptacles in wall spaces. If you have a wall space wider than two feet, it needs a receptacle. The fact that there is a receptacle within reach of the wall space does not matter. Nor does it matter that the owner is unlikely to use that particular receptacle. The wall space itself needs a receptacle.

 

[JohnE]

I agree with Charlie and Jim. I can't follow your question, but wall space needs receptacle. And needs receptacle within that wall space. (This last sentence is important. George almost had me convinced otherwise a few years ago.)

 

[allenwayne]

I should have read the OP better.I didn`t realize that there is a wall space in front of the cabinet 3`5" .Then the peninsular started and that was the wall in question.Yes it does require a receptacle being 24"+.

 

[George Stolz]

I'm not seeing the installation in question either. I would offer the following statement as well:

There is a difference between "wall space" and "counter wall space". You must treat them as independent entities for code-logic reasons I can't recall at the moment.

John's piqued my curiousity, I'm searching the scrolls to find the related thread. All I remember is I backed the wrong horse (I said that the counter receptacle could serve wall space off the countertop for six feet), and was shown the error of my ways. I can't remember more than that at the moment.

I shall return.

 

[allenwayne]

George are you saying that after a counter top SA circuit that you can only feed a wall receptacle ,lets say in a nook area for only 6 FT. ????

 

[JohnE]

George,

I was refering to a thread maybe a year ago about the small wall space behind a door in a bedroom. I think you started it. The question was whether a receptacle on a nearby wall space could satisfy that small wall space. Consensus was that it couldn't, as receptacle needs to also be within the wall space. I don't know that I'm explaining it well, but I'm sure you'll recall it. You had me convinced, until Mike (I think) made light dawn on marble head.

John

 

[George Stolz]

John, I remember it well. I just can't find the sucker, and it's bugging me.

 

[charlie b]

I remember it too. The issue turned on whether you could take credit for the distance, measured diagonally across the floor, from one wall to another wall.

 

[malachi constant]

George et al, I disagree. I think code allows a counter receptacle to cover non-counter areas.

210.52.A.1: "Receptacles shall be installed so that no point measured horizontally along the floor line in any wall space is more than 6 ft from a receptacle outlet."

210.52: "Receptacle outlets required by this section shall be in addition to any receptacle that is part of a luminaire or appliance, located within cabinets or cupboards, or located more than 5 1/2 ft above the floor."

They way I read it, the 3 1/2 ft wall space in my example is completely covered by the above-counter receptacle, provided said receptacle is less than 5 1/2 ft above the floor.

The area behind a door that one of you brought up in a previous thread...that is very interesting indeed. I'd like to see the thread!

I have additional receptacle questions:
- How about under stairs in a two-story apartment unit - does the floor line begin at the bottom of the back of the stairs? Would a receptacle be required in an area you'd have to crawl to get to? I think it is reasonable to classify this as storage/crawl space.
- How about at the bottom landing of stairs, assuming the landing is in a corner? I see this as hallway space, intended for the same use as someone coming into the front hallway - primarily for passage from one area into another.

How do you guys handle these areas?

 

[malachi constant]

charlie b: if the issue hinged on measuring diagonally across the floor it is obviously wrong - the code requires measuring horizontally along the floor line. I don't mind looking for ways to reduce cost, but that bird don't fly.

 

[George Stolz]

The area behind a door that one of you brought up in a previous thread...that is very interesting indeed. I'd like to see the thread!

You better look at it, because it was truly a labor of love finding this SOB.

Here it is, in it's vintage setting.

George smoking crack, at his best.

Edit: Click here for the skip to the chase.

 

[malachi constant]

Very impressive George. You were darn well incoherent for a couple posts there.

I think you cracked when the thread was parsed like this:
Receptacles shall be installed ... so that no point ... measured horizontally along the floor line in any wall space ... is more than 6 ft from a receptacle outlet.

Whereas I parse the thread like this:
Receptacles shall be installed ... so that no point ... in any wall space ... measured horizontally along the floor line ... is more than 6 ft from a receptacle outlet.

The rules of both logic and english grammar certainly allow this parsing. A clarification is needed from the NEC, that's for sure.

Now for practical purposes - how I think a clarification should be approached - is doorways SHOULD count as barriers through which the wall space is broken and extension (or appliance) cords should not have to cross. But a kitchen peninsula should not count as such a barrier - it is not unsafe to put a table between kitchen counter and kitchen peninsula, set a lamp or answering machine on this table, and plug it into an above-counter receptacle less than six feet away. Not unsafe at all.

 

[charlie b]

George et al, I disagree.

They way I read it, the 3 1/2 ft wall space in my example is completely covered by the above-counter receptacle, provided said receptacle is less than 5 1/2 ft above the floor.

Here is what you are missing: The fact that a receptacle above the countertop is less than 5 1/2 feet above the floor does not change the fact that that receptacle is not within the wall space. Any wall space (in certain rooms of which the kitchen is one) that is over 2 feet wide must have a receptacle. The receptacle must be in the wall space. You can?t get around that requirement.

Look at the 3.5 foot wide wall space in your example. Look at the floor line. Follow the floor line to the left edge of the wall space, and you will encounter a break in the floor line. Follow the floor line to the right edge, and you will encounter another break in the floor line. Between those two breaks, there is wall space. You must put a receptacle in that space. Put it 4 feet (or whatever) above the floor, if you like, so that it is at the same height as all other kitchen receptacles, but put in within the wall space.

 

[malachi constant]

QUOTE: "Look at the 3.5 foot wide wall space in your example. Look at the floor line. Follow the floor line to the left edge of the wall space, and you will encounter a break in the floor line."

I disagree charlie - you do not encounter a break in the floor line, you encounter a break in the wall space. The floor line continues under the counter into the living room. The term "wall space" is clearly defined. The term "floor line" is not defined. I am assuming the term "floor line" can be used interchangeably with "ceiling line" or "any horizontal line running parallel to the wall(s) in question". For most practical purposes these are one and the same.

If I measure horizontally along the floor line I will find that all points within the 3.5-foot wall space are within 6 feet of an above-counter receptacle. These receptacles are not excluded from the general exclusions in 210.52.

The code could have been written to very clearly say "every wall space more than 24" in horizontal length shall have within it an installed receptacle." But the code does not say this.

I do not think I am going against code, nor the intent of code. However, I don't think most are going to agree with me. I'd love for a clarification in the next NEC edition so that there is no longer any ambiguity.

 

[charlie b]

You are reading what is not there. A ?wall space? is a space wider than two feet that is unbroken along the floor line. The kitchen cabinets break the wall space at the floor line. Above the floor line in the wall space there is wall. Above the floor line in the cabinet space there are cabinets. Once you get to the cabinets, you are no longer governed by the 6 foot rule of 210.52(A)(1). Rather, you are governed by the rule concerning ?wall counter spaces,? as described in 210.52(C)(1). You are welcome to leave the wall receptacle out, if you choose. But do not be surprised when the installation fails to pass the inspection.

My opinion, of course, does not matter. The opinion of the AHJ is the only one that counts. You might try passing your concept by the person who will inspect your work, before you commit yourself to a plan that would cost you extra money, if and when it fails.

 

[jwelectric]

I remember very clearly having a similar discussion at the Southern Sectional Meeting of the IAEI in Cocoa Florida. What I learned was that any receptacle that is located between 12 inches below and 20 inches above a counter top belongs to that counter top and nothing else.

Based on this embarrassing monument in my life I have come to the conclusion that the area being discussed in this thread would require a receptacle as outlined in 210.52(A) and a receptacle that was installed to fulfill the requirements of 210.52(C) can not be used.

Yes I did come back and had a very large meal of crow and dumplings. This meal got me to stop and listen every once and a while.
I agree with Charlie as long as what Charlie is saying what it is that I agree with. lol

 

[JohnE]

Charlie is very accurate in his explanation, and I agree with him 100%.