hot tub equipotential

[don_resqcapt19]

gmack,

680.42 Outdoor Installations
A spa or hot tub installed outdoors shall comply with the provisions of Parts I and II of this article, except as permitted in 680.42(A) and 680.42(B), that would otherwise apply to pools installed outdoors.

The only relief in 680.42(B) is that you are not required to bond "metal bands or hoops used to secure wooden staves', as would otherwisebe required by 680.26(B)(3). I see nothing that says 680.26(C) does not apply.
Don

 

[George Stolz]

Do you see something missing?

No, I don't, see 680.42:

680.42 Outdoor Installations. A spa or hot tub installed outdoors shall comply with the provisions of Parts I and II of this article, except as permitted in 680.42(A) and 680.42(B), that would otherwise apply to pools installed outdoors.

 

[George Stolz]

Afternoon, Don.

 

[Gmack]

Don

Don

.

Yes, I would agree except that a "drop on tub" is not perm. If one is "built in" then 680.26.

You cant just sweep 680.40 under the rug.

 

[George Stolz]

Yes, I would agree except that a "drop on tub" is not perm. If one is "built in" then 680.26.

Can you please provide a code reference to support this "temp/perm" stuff?

You cant just sweep 680.40 under the rug.

How is observing Part II (as 680.42 is requiring) violating 680.40?

 

[Gmack]

To All

To All

.
The more I reason on this as an electrician, I see the CMP searching for a solution where no problem exist.They figured the metal staves on an "above" ground "drop down" tub should'nt be included as in 680.26.

Was that because some inspector or AHJ might apply 26 by mistake?

Why would they do that if Part II and its grid stands relevant? Its a silly thing after all. For a CMP to bother with.

 

[iwire]

.

Yes, I would agree except that a "drop on tub" is not perm. If one is "built in" then 680.26.

Gmack I have to ask as well.

Where in the NEC do you see a distention between permanent and built in hot tubs?

It really appears you just have not kept up with the changes and are going from past code cycles.

Take a look at my signature and apply it.

 

[iwire]

.
The more I reason on this as an electrician, I see the CMP searching for a solution where no problem exist.They figured the metal staves on an "above" ground "drop down" tub should'nt be included as in 680.26.

Regarless of the need the words are there in the NEC requiring the grid under outdoor hot tubs.

You can avoid installing the grid by placing the Hot tub on a wood deck.

 

[Gmack]

Iwire

Iwire

.
Your quick and presumptious remarks are not only wrong, but unbecomming a Moderator.

Just because you dont agree, doesnt give that right to insult.

Maybe someone above you will rebuke you for that.

Charlie B did it to me once

Or will you now delete my post.

Don has my respect because of his professional stature.

You however, are no wiser than me all the time and I no wiser than you.

Behind the times you say I am. What a total disapointment you are.

Let me give you some advice Moderator, forget your clever signature's and try and think like an electrician.

 

[renosteinke]

hot tub equipotential

I must be getting old...I thought I had posted on this yesterday!

This is the sort of situation that starts blurring things. First the tub is placed on the patio, then a wood platform to walk on is added, than a gazebo, or the patio is enclosed.... it's enough to make you want to pull your hair out!

I suppose that, on balance, there really ought to be a local "ground," tied to, and in addition to, the ground wire from the panel. I would chip away a section of the patio so as to expose, say, 6" of rebar, then connect a #4 ground wire with at least two clamps to it. Then, patch the concrete.

Though "after the fact," I think the rebar almost has to make an 'equipotential grid,' even if no special steps were taken to ensure the pieces were tied together at the time. I also think you've just made an adequate "ufer." (OK, so it's not 20 ft. of copper in the slab.... I'm not sure there's even 20 ft. of rebar there!) (And a tub outside the door isn't much of a 'detached structure', or separate lightning target, as I see it anyway).


The irony of all this concern is not the installations we do, but the 'trickle down' from certain 3rd-world PoCo's that continue to try to use the ground as a 'neutral' wire, back to the generating plant! "North Joisey Shock'n Awfull" is one that comes to mind. That they are owned by the same municipality that will inspect your work is just too ironic for words.

 

[iwire]

Gmack I have not insulted you, I was simply pointing out that the fact you have been doing Hot tubs a long time a certain way may be making it hard for you to accept that the code has changed.

It has nothing to do with 'thinking like an electrician' it has to do with applying the NEC as written regardless of agreeing with it or not.

At this point you have been presented the code sections, the CMPs comments and the view of others than myself that you are mistaken.

If you chose to ignore all that fine, but don't feel insulted because I won't agree with you.

 

[Gmack]

Iwire

Iwire

.

Not so fast as yet.

You and the others are not AHJ's. So dont assume some authority on the NEC.

Dont mask your insult to me. I got it!

I also provided equal material to rebutt you. Electrician based/NEC. 2005

You are not a AHJ. Think about that. MOD.

 

[iwire]

.

I also provided equal material to rebutt you. Electrician based/NEC. 2005.

What material have you provided that supports your position?

 

[Gmack]

Mod

Mod

.
Do you even read the post before you type?

Just do your job and dont ask me to repeat myself. You go back and see why you were incompentent in the first place.

OK BOB!

 

[Pierre C Belarge]

Gmack
If you need an AHJ to tell you that you are misunderstanding this situation, then I will tell you such.

I just came back from the Eastern Section of the IAEI, there were several members of CMP 5 there. This very topic was discussed. I will tell you that this E-bonding plane was discussed in detail. It is required for hottubs/spas when installed outdoors. One of the concerns is the shock people are receiving not just when in the tub, but as they enter or leave the tub and touch the surface the tub is place on or around the tub as well.

If you have not been installing this way in the past, do not get mad or upset, just correct your method for future installations... we have all made mistakes, it is what we learn from them that counts.

 

[iwire]

.
Do you even read the post before you type?

Yes I have, and I have tried to understand your view.

You mentioned you respect Don, I am not surprised many of us do respect his knowledge.

That said Don has the most direct and to the point post in this entire thread.

gmack,

680.42 Outdoor Installations
A spa or hot tub installed outdoors shall comply with the provisions of Parts I and II of this article, except as permitted in 680.42(A) and 680.42(B), that would otherwise apply to pools installed outdoors.

The only relief in 680.42(B) is that you are not required to bond "metal bands or hoops used to secure wooden staves', as would otherwisebe required by 680.26(B)(3). I see nothing that says 680.26(C) does not apply.
Don

It is just that simple, no need to worry about it being permanent, temporary, needed or effective it is required.

By the way are you working from the 2005 NEC?

 

[Gmack]

Pierre C Belarge

Pierre C Belarge

'
Quit lumping me in the past. Thats Iwire's problem.

I know of not one installation to date where a throw down tub has a grid as per 680.26.

Will some one please show or provide an AHJ/NEC UL or othrwise diagram/listing/plan for this.

Let one AHJ stand up here and say it is NEC 2005 .

 

[iwire]

Will some one please show or provide an AHJ/NEC UL or othrwise diagram/listing/plan for this.

The construction of the grid is discussed in detail in 2005 NEC 680.26(C)(1),(2) and (3).

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Gmack,

I see the CMP searching for a solution where no problem exist.

Very few code proposals come from the CMP. For the most part they only act on proposals submitted by outsiders.
Don

 

[infinity]

Where did post #40 go? I know that I just read it.