hot tub equipotential
- Thread starter shelco
- Start date
- Status
rcarroll
Senior Member
- Location
- Fort Collins, Colorado
Check w/ AHJ. I'm sure homeowner will not want their slab torn out. I should add that code is code. You can wire it to code or walk away from it.
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Doesn't Apply
Doesn't Apply
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680.26 is for swimming pools permantley installed.
If it were meant for hotubs installed outdoors then 680.42 wouldnt state otherwise.
680.42 Outdoor Installations
A spa or hot tub installed outdoors shall comply with the provisions of Parts I and II of this article, except as permitted in 680.42(A) and 680.42(B), that would otherwise apply to pools installed outdoors.
(B) Bonding Bonding by metal-to-metal mounting on a common frame or base shall be permitted. The metal bands or hoops used to secure wooden staves shall not be required to be bonded as required in 680.26
There are several requirements for bonding in 680.42 but the dreaded grid isn't among them. Plus 680.42 allows other relaxed wiring methods etc. and keep in mind a residential hotub is required to have GFCI anyway.
Having said that, it would be to your advantage to make sure your AHJ is on your same page. Give him/her a call and verify, that is assuming your area follows/adopts the NEC.
Doesn't Apply
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680.26 is for swimming pools permantley installed.
If it were meant for hotubs installed outdoors then 680.42 wouldnt state otherwise.
680.42 Outdoor Installations
A spa or hot tub installed outdoors shall comply with the provisions of Parts I and II of this article, except as permitted in 680.42(A) and 680.42(B), that would otherwise apply to pools installed outdoors.
(B) Bonding Bonding by metal-to-metal mounting on a common frame or base shall be permitted. The metal bands or hoops used to secure wooden staves shall not be required to be bonded as required in 680.26
There are several requirements for bonding in 680.42 but the dreaded grid isn't among them. Plus 680.42 allows other relaxed wiring methods etc. and keep in mind a residential hotub is required to have GFCI anyway.
Having said that, it would be to your advantage to make sure your AHJ is on your same page. Give him/her a call and verify, that is assuming your area follows/adopts the NEC.
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- Location
- Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
- Occupation
- Service Manager
Gmack, I offer to you this excerpt from the ROP leading to the 2005 NEC:
George
George
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Why dont you elaborate? Are you saying 680.42 is in error?
Furthermore, what about GFCI on tubs? How would they allow gradients that are hazordous to life? I have wired hundreds of tubs and never had a person/customer electricuted and many/all of the tubs were outside locations.
So I say, "Whats the point" or what is your point. I would add that the source you cited was rejected after all.
George, as a trade, if we continue down a road of "The sky is falling" approach, then put a grid under the driveway and lawn under some percieved gradient problem.
Do away with GFCI's
Not flamming, just not seeing something thats broke, so why fix it.
George
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Why dont you elaborate? Are you saying 680.42 is in error?
Furthermore, what about GFCI on tubs? How would they allow gradients that are hazordous to life? I have wired hundreds of tubs and never had a person/customer electricuted and many/all of the tubs were outside locations.
So I say, "Whats the point" or what is your point. I would add that the source you cited was rejected after all.
George, as a trade, if we continue down a road of "The sky is falling" approach, then put a grid under the driveway and lawn under some percieved gradient problem
Do away with GFCI's
Not flamming, just not seeing something thats broke, so why fix it.
- Location
- Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
- Occupation
- Service Manager
Gmack said:
No, I am saying that the CMP believes that 680.26 applies to Hot Tubs, and as worded, I agree with them. Nothing in Part IV modifies the requirements of 680.26.
Let's back up:
Gmack in Post #3 said:
What (B) is saying is, 680.26 applies. We have to specifically exclude metal bands and hoops from the equipotential bonding required in 680.26 because 680.26 requires those items to be included.
What's notably absent from the exclusions in 680.42(B) is the big taco, the e-bonding grid.
The e-bonding grid is also to protect from stray voltages which would be present whether the source GFCI for the hot tub / pool is tripped or not.
It was rejected based on the fact that the panel regarded it as redundant, because 680.26 already applied to outdoor hot tubs.Gmack said:
Pretty wild, huh? Nothing personal taken, I didn't write the damned thing.
rcarroll
Senior Member
- Location
- Fort Collins, Colorado
Hey George! What is the CHTTC in your signature?
- Location
- Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
- Occupation
- Service Manager
Chairman, Holier Than Thou Committee.
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George, I disagree.
680.42 lists all "things" to be bonded and never does it cite or describe a grid to be included.
I could have and indeed have had tubs installed on wood decks above grade.
Do we need a grid for an appliance or a GFCI?
If an exception was made in B, then why?
Tubs are not permanetly installed and are not required [to date] to have grids as per 680.26.
George, yes, I see your point about the panel, but all that shows is a "government job" cluster.
Based on language alone we could argue but in the real world a tub and a swimming pool are diffrent animals and in my opinion, again, a tub has a GFCI and everything around it is required to have GFCI and or, bonding,.
There are many inspectors/members here. Maybe they will respond.
George, I disagree.
680.42 lists all "things" to be bonded and never does it cite or describe a grid to be included.
I could have and indeed have had tubs installed on wood decks above grade.
Do we need a grid for an appliance or a GFCI?
If an exception was made in B, then why?
Tubs are not permanetly installed and are not required [to date] to have grids as per 680.26.
George, yes, I see your point about the panel, but all that shows is a "government job" cluster.
Based on language alone we could argue but in the real world a tub and a swimming pool are diffrent animals and in my opinion, again, a tub has a GFCI and everything around it is required to have GFCI and or, bonding,.
There are many inspectors/members here. Maybe they will respond.
- Location
- Massachusetts
I am not an inspector but I agree with George's posts.
The grid is required.
The grid is required.
Mike Holt
Mike Holt
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Article 680 Excerpts from Holt article:
Swimming Pools, Spas, Hot Tubs, Fountains, and Similar Installations
680.26 Equipotential Bonding
Change requires an equipotential bonding grid be installed to reduce voltage gradients in and around permanently installed pools, outdoor spas, and outdoor hot tubs.
(B) Bonded Parts. The following parts of a permanently installed pool, outdoor spa, and outdoor hot tub must be bonded to a equipotential bonding grid of the type specified in 680.26(C).
Author’s Comment: See 680.42(B) for the bonding methods permitted for outdoor spas and hot tubs.
(1) Metallic Parts of Structure. All metallic parts of the water structure, including the reinforcing metal of the permanently installed pool, outdoor spa, and outdoor hot tub shell and deck, must be bonded to the equipotential grid. The usual steel tie wires are considered suitable for bonding the reinforcing steel together for this purpose. Welding or special clamping is not required, but the tie wires must be made tight. Figure 680-4
Where the reinforcing steel of the permanently installed pool, outdoor spa, and outdoor hot tub shell and deck are encapsulated with a nonconductive compound or if it’s not available, an equipotential grid constructed in accordance with 680.26(C) must be installed to mask stray voltage gradients.
(2) Underwater Lighting. All metal forming shells for underwater permanently installed pool, outdoor spa, and outdoor hot tub luminaires and speakers.
(3) Metal Fittings. Metal fittings within or attached to the permanently installed pool, outdoor spa, and outdoor hot tub structure, such as ladders and handrails.
(4) Electrical Equipment. Metal parts of electrical equipment associated with the permanently installed pool, outdoor spa, and outdoor hot tub water circulating system, such as water heaters and pump motors. Accessible metal parts of listed equipment incorporating a system of double insulation and providing a means for grounding internal metal parts are not required to be directly bonded to the equipotential grid.
(5) Metal Wiring Methods and Equipment. Metal-sheathed cables and raceways, metal piping, and all fixed metal parts, as well as metallic surfaces of electrical equipment, must be bonded to the equipotential grid if located:
(1) Within 5 ft horizontally of the inside walls of the permanently installed pool, outdoor spa, and outdoor hot tub, and
(2) Within 12 ft measured vertically above the maximum water level of the permanently installed pool, outdoor spa, and outdoor hot tub, or any observation stands, towers, or platforms or any diving structures.
My 2 Cents .Setting down a appliance on a concrete or otherwise deck does not constitute as "permanently installed" as per the OP. or NEC or Holt.
Think about it.
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Mike Holt
.
Article 680 Excerpts from Holt article:
Swimming Pools, Spas, Hot Tubs, Fountains, and Similar Installations
680.26 Equipotential Bonding
Change requires an equipotential bonding grid be installed to reduce voltage gradients in and around permanently installed pools, outdoor spas, and outdoor hot tubs.
(B) Bonded Parts. The following parts of a permanently installed pool, outdoor spa, and outdoor hot tub must be bonded to a equipotential bonding grid of the type specified in 680.26(C).
Author’s Comment: See 680.42(B) for the bonding methods permitted for outdoor spas and hot tubs.
(1) Metallic Parts of Structure. All metallic parts of the water structure, including the reinforcing metal of the permanently installed pool, outdoor spa, and outdoor hot tub shell and deck, must be bonded to the equipotential grid. The usual steel tie wires are considered suitable for bonding the reinforcing steel together for this purpose. Welding or special clamping is not required, but the tie wires must be made tight. Figure 680-4
Where the reinforcing steel of the permanently installed pool, outdoor spa, and outdoor hot tub shell and deck are encapsulated with a nonconductive compound or if it’s not available, an equipotential grid constructed in accordance with 680.26(C) must be installed to mask stray voltage gradients.
(2) Underwater Lighting. All metal forming shells for underwater permanently installed pool, outdoor spa, and outdoor hot tub luminaires and speakers.
(3) Metal Fittings. Metal fittings within or attached to the permanently installed pool, outdoor spa, and outdoor hot tub structure, such as ladders and handrails.
(4) Electrical Equipment. Metal parts of electrical equipment associated with the permanently installed pool, outdoor spa, and outdoor hot tub water circulating system, such as water heaters and pump motors. Accessible metal parts of listed equipment incorporating a system of double insulation and providing a means for grounding internal metal parts are not required to be directly bonded to the equipotential grid.
(5) Metal Wiring Methods and Equipment. Metal-sheathed cables and raceways, metal piping, and all fixed metal parts, as well as metallic surfaces of electrical equipment, must be bonded to the equipotential grid if located:
(1) Within 5 ft horizontally of the inside walls of the permanently installed pool, outdoor spa, and outdoor hot tub, and
(2) Within 12 ft measured vertically above the maximum water level of the permanently installed pool, outdoor spa, and outdoor hot tub, or any observation stands, towers, or platforms or any diving structures.
My 2 Cents .Setting down a appliance on a concrete or otherwise deck does not constitute as "permanently installed" as per the OP. or NEC or Holt.
Think about it.
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- Location
- New Jersey
- Occupation
- Journeyman Electrician
If the tub is hard wired, IMO it's permanently installed.
Infinity
Infinity
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The perm "installed" part in the NEC goes into "below" grade with all sort of grid and or structure including pool walls, pavement walkways, ladders, etc on and and on it goes.
How is a hardwired appliance permanent?
680 allows for a cord and plug connected hot tub.
Now can we or would we provide a grid for this set up? Why?
It is not permanent. Yes?
Infinity
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The perm "installed" part in the NEC goes into "below" grade with all sort of grid and or structure including pool walls, pavement walkways, ladders, etc on and and on it goes.
How is a hardwired appliance permanent?
680 allows for a cord and plug connected hot tub.
Now can we or would we provide a grid for this set up? Why?
It is not permanent. Yes?
- Location
- Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
- Occupation
- Service Manager
Could you post the definition of "Permanently-Installed Spa or Hot Tub", I'm not finding it.Gmack said:
Looking at the book I'm looking at, a Hot Tub looks permanent regardless of it's means of connection.
I'd say the last sentence in the definition emanates a certain degree of permanance surrounding a hot tub. Otherwise, it would likely be a storable pool.
- Location
- Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
- Occupation
- Service Manager
So, does this information that you've posted lead you to believe that a permanently installed hot tub requires an equipotential bonding grid be installed?Gmack said:
George
George
.
Storable pools are not drained after each use. But in the North you better leave the thermostat on a hot tub above 32 if you get my meaning. Or simply open the drain valve and wait for Spring.
In my area they love to go outside during a blizzard and soak thier bones. I truly cant recall the number of tubs I wired at Christmas season. Well Its damned hard to build a grid then and no one said we had to.
To start with, yes, I say yes again, a perm tub must be treated as per 680.26.
My contention here is that an appliance tub "set down" on a slab or deck is not perm. It has GFCI and if a electrician does his job then everything around it is bonded anyway. Except some stone or earthen walkway. Or some staves.
So "perm" is the word. We might as well then require indoor tubs and bathroom tubs to have a grid too, along with the entire driveway, basement floor, and of course lets not forget the lawn. Lets just go ahead and bond everything like say we do in Health Care Facilities.
Right now AFCI's are all the raves. Well right now they only protect the BC and not some tiny little 16/2 ext cord between duplex and baby's mouth or Fido crunching away.
Im sure technolgy will solve all these issues later on to boring redundancy. So be it.
In the beginning, engineers fell into two camps over grounding, in regards to saftey.Some said no and the others said yes.
Me, I say they were both right.
But with GFCI and AFCI, Ill take them over any over rated grid concept. When they get it right, under 1000A, then the whole house and everything outside will protect from shock and null any undue "fuss" about saftey.
Otherwise, like I said, we can wire homes and their "accessories" as per article 517. Fine by me, except no one can afford it.
A grid is only as good as its mechanical links, which are several, and subject to erosion. Its not the cure all that we are giving it credit here.
I apoligize for postulating on and off topic. But.
George
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Storable pools are not drained after each use. But in the North you better leave the thermostat on a hot tub above 32 if you get my meaning. Or simply open the drain valve and wait for Spring.
In my area they love to go outside during a blizzard and soak thier bones. I truly cant recall the number of tubs I wired at Christmas season. Well Its damned hard to build a grid then and no one said we had to.
To start with, yes, I say yes again, a perm tub must be treated as per 680.26.
My contention here is that an appliance tub "set down" on a slab or deck is not perm. It has GFCI and if a electrician does his job then everything around it is bonded anyway. Except some stone or earthen walkway. Or some staves.
So "perm" is the word. We might as well then require indoor tubs and bathroom tubs to have a grid too, along with the entire driveway, basement floor, and of course lets not forget the lawn. Lets just go ahead and bond everything like say we do in Health Care Facilities.
Right now AFCI's are all the raves. Well right now they only protect the BC and not some tiny little 16/2 ext cord between duplex and baby's mouth or Fido crunching away.
Im sure technolgy will solve all these issues later on to boring redundancy. So be it.
In the beginning, engineers fell into two camps over grounding, in regards to saftey.Some said no and the others said yes.
Me, I say they were both right.
But with GFCI and AFCI, Ill take them over any over rated grid concept. When they get it right, under 1000A, then the whole house and everything outside will protect from shock and null any undue "fuss" about saftey.
Otherwise, like I said, we can wire homes and their "accessories" as per article 517. Fine by me, except no one can afford it.
A grid is only as good as its mechanical links, which are several, and subject to erosion. Its not the cure all that we are giving it credit here.
I apoligize for postulating on and off topic. But.
- Location
- Massachusetts
Outdoor hot tubs require the grid no mater how portable they are.
- Location
- Massachusetts
By the way....how did the subject of permanent or portable come into this discussion.
680.42 is about outdoor hot tubs period, I don't see any mention of permanent or portable.
680.42 is about outdoor hot tubs period, I don't see any mention of permanent or portable.
George, Iwire
George, Iwire
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IV. Spas and Hot Tubs
680.40 General
Electrical installations at spas and hot tubs shall comply with the provisions of Part I and Part IV of this article.
Do you see something missing?
Part II.
II. Permanently Installed Pools
680.20 General
Electrical installations at permanently installed pools shall comply with the provisions of Part I and Part II of this article.
This is from part II, 680.42 is not subject to as per 680.40 above
680.26 Equipotential Bonding
(A) Performance The equipotential bonding required by this section shall be installed to eliminate voltage gradients in the pool area as prescribed.
George, Iwire
.
IV. Spas and Hot Tubs
680.40 General
Electrical installations at spas and hot tubs shall comply with the provisions of Part I and Part IV of this article.
Do you see something missing?
Part II.
II. Permanently Installed Pools
680.20 General
Electrical installations at permanently installed pools shall comply with the provisions of Part I and Part II of this article.
This is from part II, 680.42 is not subject to as per 680.40 above
680.26 Equipotential Bonding
(A) Performance The equipotential bonding required by this section shall be installed to eliminate voltage gradients in the pool area as prescribed.
- Location
- Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
- Occupation
- Service Manager
Gmack said:
Gmack, what you've said (that I've quoted) are probably the primary reasons that many do not realize the current requirements for a hot tub include an equipotential bonding grid. This article is badly written (many cross-references piled on with alterations to the cross-references, exceptions to the cross references, perhaps even contradictions mixed in) for starters.Gmack said:
As a result, inspectors probably remain unaware they are supposed to be enforcing it with the current text. If they were to try, they'd be met with resistance because the language isn't crystal clear in the first place. Also, "it's never been enforced before, so it must not say what you think it says," comes into play.
Ultimately, then it comes down to "who the heck are we protecting with this nonsense anyway? It's overkill for a spa."
I understand the sentiment. I don't know why this is required for spas. I don't know how many people are saved from having equipotential around pools, but I'm not about to start advocating ignoring the rules until we have a corpse to study.
In the 2005, they slackened the requirements for jetted tubs. Perhaps in light of the massive ignorance of the expectations of hot tubs, and the subsequent lack of installation and enforcement that came along with that, there will be ample evidence that it should be removed from the code.
Until then, it is what it is. What do you think should be done?
I see the diversions into permanent/temporary and AFCI/GFCI bits as dancing around the main topic: Is equipotential bonding required, and should it be?
- Status