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    #16
    The appliance garages I have done sit on the countertop, so I have always put the outlet inside on the small appliance circuit, with gfci protection, and have never had an inspector say a word about it. Many kitchens have L-shaped counters, and the garage sits in the corner. I make sure I have an outlet within 24" of the garage on either side. As a matter of fact, when laying out a kichen counter, I try to allow for one, because they are often added later.
    John from Baltimore "One Day at a Time"

    Comment


      #17
      A related question, and my opinion, is whether the appliance garage has any effect on the required receptacle spacing.
      In other words, what if the garage is more than 24" wide?

      Must the flanking receptacles still be no more than 24" apart? The typical garage spans well over 24" along the wall line, with at least one foot per side.

      My answer, right or wrong:

      The garage itself interrupts the countertop where it meets the wall. That means the flanking receptacles must be no closer than 24" from the respective garage side walls.

      Opinions?
      Master Electrician
      Electrical Contractor
      Richmond, VA

      Comment


        #18
        Do you mean the flanking recepticles must be within 24" of the garage walls? If so, then I agree.
        John from Baltimore "One Day at a Time"

        Comment


          #19
          Originally posted by LarryFine
          A related question, and my opinion, is whether the appliance garage has any effect on the required receptacle spacing.
          In other words, what if the garage is more than 24" wide?

          Must the flanking receptacles still be no more than 24" apart? The typical garage spans well over 24" along the wall line, with at least one foot per side.

          My answer, right or wrong:

          The garage itself interrupts the countertop where it meets the wall. That means the flanking receptacles must be no closer than 24" from the respective garage side walls.

          Opinions?
          I agree also Larry.
          Rob

          Moderator

          All responses based on the 2017 NEC unless otherwise noted

          Comment


            #20
            Ran into my first one 20 years ago.GC added it without talking to me.To make inspector happy they had to remove it.I am sure it went back after the C/O.We should think about fact that next owner might not want it.I see it as no differant in use with or without garage,it is the same non fixed appliance that normally sits on counter.Just cant give it credit for spacing.The other receptacles in kitchen are on the SA so why not here ? As to the gfci ,why would it not be one of the slaves ?Still only need 2.
            member of the Christine car club

            Comment


              #21
              OK part II

              When laying out the dinning room, there is a 22" wall space between fire place and the slider, wifey wants her Fondue Pot to be placed in front of this 22" wall. Can this receptacle come off the small appliance branch circuit that serves the dinning room?

              Jim
              New Hampshire
              Jim, NH
              ------------
              [COLOR="Blue"]I bought a dog just so people wouldn't think I was talking to myself.[/COLOR]:D

              Comment


                #22
                Originally posted by volt102
                When laying out the dinning room..... Can this receptacle come off the small appliance branch circuit that serves the dinning room?
                IMO it has to. 210.52(B)(1)


                -Dave

                Comment


                  #23
                  Originally posted by volt102
                  OK part II

                  When laying out the dinning room, there is a 22" wall space between fire place and the slider, wifey wants her Fondue Pot to be placed in front of this 22" wall. Can this receptacle come off the small appliance branch circuit that serves the dinning room?

                  Jim
                  New Hampshire
                  There is no restriction on a min size a wall must have in a dining room.ALL receptacles in a dining room or a nook area must be 20 amp circuits.It is up to the EC if they are to be seperate from the 2 required S/A circuits or part of them.Going back to the appliance garage issue.An appliance garage doesn`t count for countertop recepalces as far as spacing goes.They don`t have to be gfci protected but I agree that it is easier to place them on the S/A gfci circuit since most times they are in the middle of a counter top or in a corner.Kitchen design plays a major part in the layout.

                  Comment


                    #24
                    IMO, app. garage receps are required to be GFI protected. 210.52(5) talks about location. I does not take away the GFI requirement of 210.8. The garage is still on the kitchen counter. Think about it, if you have more than 1 appl. in the garage, you have to pull the 1 you want to use out onto the counter.
                    Ron

                    Comment


                      #25
                      Originally posted by rcarroll
                      IMO, app. garage receps are required to be GFI protected. 210.52(5) talks about location. I does not take away the GFI requirement of 210.8. The garage is still on the kitchen counter. Think about it, if you have more than 1 appl. in the garage, you have to pull the 1 you want to use out onto the counter.
                      Yes and it now is serving the counter top.Why would we not want to gfci protect it since it cost nothing extra ?
                      member of the Christine car club

                      Comment


                        #26
                        A 22" wall does not meet the definition of a wall space as per 210.52(A)(2) and therefore not one covered by 210.52(A)(1).

                        210.52(B)(1) Receptacle Outlets Served. In the kitchen, pantry, breakfast room, dining room, or similar area of a dwelling unit, the two or more 20-ampere small-appliance branch circuits required by 210.11(C)(1) shall serve all wall and floor receptacle outlets covered by 210.52(A), all countertop outlets covered by 210.52(C), and receptacle outlets for refrigeration equipment.

                        210.52(B)(2) The two or more small-appliance branch circuits specified in 210.52(B)(1) shall have no other outlets.

                        Jim
                        New Hampshire
                        Jim, NH
                        ------------
                        [COLOR="Blue"]I bought a dog just so people wouldn't think I was talking to myself.[/COLOR]:D

                        Comment


                          #27
                          Originally posted by volt102
                          A 22" wall does not meet the definition of a wall space as per 210.52(A)(2) and therefore not one covered by 210.52(A)(1).

                          210.52(B)(1) Receptacle Outlets Served. In the kitchen, pantry, breakfast room, dining room, or similar area of a dwelling unit, the two or more 20-ampere small-appliance branch circuits required by 210.11(C)(1) shall serve all wall and floor receptacle outlets covered by 210.52(A), all countertop outlets covered by 210.52(C), and receptacle outlets for refrigeration equipment.

                          210.52(B)(2) The two or more small-appliance branch circuits specified in 210.52(B)(1) shall have no other outlets.

                          Jim
                          New Hampshire
                          Its not required but not prohibited either
                          member of the Christine car club

                          Comment


                            #28
                            Then I must be misinterpreting the following:

                            210.52(B)(2) The two or more small-appliance branch circuits specified in 210.52(B)(1) shall have no other outlets.

                            I take this as if it is not specified, then it can not be on the two or more SBAC

                            Jim
                            New Hampshire
                            Jim, NH
                            ------------
                            [COLOR="Blue"]I bought a dog just so people wouldn't think I was talking to myself.[/COLOR]:D

                            Comment


                              #29
                              True, the letter of the nec would seem to prohibit it, but I certainly think the spirit of the rule is for all the 120v receps in the dining rm to be on the small appliance circuit. I certainly would fail inspection if I didn't. Am I supposed to pull a dedicated circuit for an outlet a HO wants to add on a short wall?
                              John from Baltimore "One Day at a Time"

                              Comment


                                #30
                                Well, there have been some good shouting matches - er - discussions about SABC's, appliance garages, GFI protection, and what the NEC does/doesn't/wants to/doesn't know how to - require.

                                Kitchen Circuits - unresolved
                                Countertop Outlets in kitchens - unresolved
                                Since you guys are so smart - resolved-ish.

                                My opinion (devoid of the 50 cents for coffee): If the NEC contained common sense in this area, it would require the receptacles inside the garage to be considered wall counter space, and 210.8 would slide into place, as would 210.52(B).

                                As it is, the countertop in front of the appliance garage is not wall counter space (despite the CMP believing the NEC says it is, but it doesn't). Since it is not wall counter space, then no receptacle is required. Since a receptacle installed in there is not permitted to be considered as serving counterspace, GFCI protection is not required.

                                But every AHJ I have encountered would require receptacles inside the appliance garage every 4', and GFCI protection. The walls of the garage would be considered a "space seperator". Why this is so hard for CMP-2 to put into words, is beyond me.

                                Comment

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