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  • Jim W in Tampa
    replied
    If that garage has a receptacle we must assume an appliance will be pluged into it.It then will be pulled out onto the COUNTER SURFACE to be used.To me that outlet serves the counter top.Gfci required.If the garage has no outlet then no problem as its simply storage.

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  • allenwayne
    replied
    Charlie it`s a design issue.It depends on where on the counter top the appliance garage is.If on a straight cabinet most are 12 ins deep,same as the uppers they are under.If in a corner again a design issue.is it a 45 corner or a 90 corner on the counter top will be a factor.Will determine how much space will be afforded.

    I look at appliance GARAGES like this......They are used to store an appliance and not use it within it.They create a break in the usuable countertop same as a cook top etc.. I have seen them built into pillars extending from the upper cabinets.If you wanted to use them within the appliance garage itself youd have to be Houdini.

    They are same as a cabinet a place to store small appliances instead of using that pretty granite as a place to park that toater,blender etc.....

    Going back to the original train of thought.Are they required to have a receptacle IMO,NO !!!!! If they do have a receptacle and they don`t actually serve the actual counter top wall area do they have to be GFCI protected ???? Well this is a matter of opinion.Since the NEC does not have a definitve answer on this.We can debate this for 5,000 posts and will still come up with the same answer.The NEC as it stands does not adress this issue and it would up to the EC and the AHJ to figure it out on an situation as is basis.

    Do I put a receptacle within the confines of the appliance garage ??? Always,are they used rarely.Since on a counter top I wire them into the GFCI circuit.For convience.only.But what I do as a norm is not the issue.Is it required to be there and gfci protected is the question.As far as I have seen there has been nothing that has been proven that #1 They HAVE to be there and #2 that if there they HAVE to be gfci protected.

    Lets change the subject one more time.Lets take a island that contains a sink a d/w , a disposal and countertop space.Any receptacles ON the counter top HAVE to be gfci protected.Now this same island faces a nook area and has usable wall receptacles spaced accordingly.Before 02 cycle these receptacles if within 6 ft of the sink HAD to be gfci protected.But after 02 cycle they are not within 6 ft. of a wet bar then the gfci requirement went away for these same receptacles.

    We are like electrical lawyers,we debate and offer conjecture and opinions but the bottom line is does the NEC actually address the particular issue in depth ,with a definitive answer ??? In most cases yes,but in this case NO !!!!! Opinions are like well we all know that one.We all have one just some are bigger

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  • charlie b
    replied
    Originally posted by allenwayne
    Charlie a sink doesn`t take up all the counter top depth either,nor does a cook top.

    That is why I said "most, if not all." There is never (well, hardly ever) enough room between the front edge of the sink and the front edge of the counter to place a toaster or other appliance.
    Originally posted by allenwayne
    Many appliance garages take up the same depth as these items.

    I said before that I have never seen one of these things installed. But I don't think an appliance garage would be of any use, if you can't slide the appliance out of the garage and onto the counter surface in front of the garage.

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  • Rockyd
    replied
    The 24" wall space is out the window in regard to kitchen definitions of spaces required to be served by the SABC. 210.52(C)(1) calls the location Wall Counter Space A receptacle outlet shall be installed at each wall counter space that is 300mm (12") or wider.

    Jump over to 210.52(C)(5) makes a point out of the fact that the appliance garage normally kills the space as readily accessible. So it appears to read anything outside of the built-in garage falls into 12" or greater counter space as defined in 210.52(C)(1). If that's not true, then why is the garage space given the same rights as a fridge? You wouldn't pull the fridge out of it's dedicated space, to gain access to a receptacle, nor would you drag all the stuff in the garage out to look for a receptacle. You would be looking to plug into that readily accessible receptacle on it's own 12" or greater counter space!
    Last edited by Rockyd; 10-21-06, 11:33 AM.

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  • volt102
    replied
    Originally posted by JES2727
    Hi Jim,
    It's a wall receptacle in a dining room of a dwelling unit. It's covered. Not required, but it is covered.


    John

    I must be not reading some code article right, or not at all. How is it covered?
    Article please....

    Jim
    New Hampshire

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  • JES2727
    replied
    covered

    Originally posted by volt102
    John,

    I think that you need to bold one more word.

    210.52(B)(1) Receptacle Outlets Served. In the kitchen, pantry, breakfast room, dining room, or similar area of a dwelling unit, the two or more 20-ampere small-appliance branch circuits required by 210.11(C)(1) shall serve all wall and floor receptacle outlets covered by 210.52(A), all countertop outlets covered by 210.52(C), and receptacle outlets for refrigeration equipment.

    Covered, or Uncovered!

    Jim
    New Hampshire

    Hi Jim,
    It's a wall receptacle in a dining room of a dwelling unit. It's covered. Not required, but it is covered.


    John

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  • volt102
    replied
    John,

    I think that you need to bold one more word.

    210.52(B)(1) Receptacle Outlets Served. In the kitchen, pantry, breakfast room, dining room, or similar area of a dwelling unit, the two or more 20-ampere small-appliance branch circuits required by 210.11(C)(1) shall serve all wall and floor receptacle outlets covered by 210.52(A), all countertop outlets covered by 210.52(C), and receptacle outlets for refrigeration equipment.

    Covered, or Uncovered!

    Jim
    New Hampshire

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  • JES2727
    replied
    Originally posted by volt102
    The receptacle in the 22" wall in the dinning room on a SABC, however, would be prohibited using the same logic, it doesn't cover walls that are under 24"....

    Jim
    New Hampshire
    I disagree. You're talking about a receptacle, on a wall. Therefore, it's a wall receptacle. The NEC does not recognize a 22" wall for spacing/placement requirements, but it does not ignore receptacles that might be placed on the wall. And as you pointed out:

    210.52(B)(1) Receptacle Outlets Served. In the kitchen, pantry, breakfast room, dining room, or similar area of a dwelling unit, the two or more 20-ampere small-appliance branch circuits required by 210.11(C)(1) shall serve all wall and floor receptacle outlets covered by 210.52(A), all countertop outlets covered by 210.52(C), and receptacle outlets for refrigeration equipment.

    Just my opinion, for what its worth. And thats not much...

    John

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  • allenwayne
    replied
    Originally posted by charlie b
    The difference, Larry, is that an applicance garage does not take up all of the counter space, from the back wall to the front edge of the counter. A sink or major appliance would take up most, if not all, of that space. So it would not seem, to me at least, that the appliance garage separates the counter into two independent counter wall spaces.
    Charlie a sink doesn`t take up all the counter top depth either,nor does a cook top.Many appliance garages take up the same depth as these items.Sometimes more in actual measurments.I stand an appliance garage DOESN`T require a receptacle at all.Does it require it to be GFCI protected if it doesn`t serve the counter top.The NEC has an exception that an appliance garage is exempt from a required receptacle and if exempt from a required rexeptacle than all it has to be to be code compliant is on a 20 amp circuit since within the confins of a kitchen.Now do I think it shouldn`t be GFCI protected ????? Well that doesn`t make a differece.The situation is is it required to be gfci protected and is a receptacle actually required to be installed at all.

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  • volt102
    replied
    After all said and done(I Think) & (For What It Is Worth)

    The original question, would be permitted, I think that Charlie Beck quickly summed it up in a nutshell in the second response. That is, it can but you don't get credit for it.

    I would say that when 210.52(B)(1) States

    Receptacle Outlets Served In the kitchen, pantry, breakfast room, dining room, or similar area of a dwelling unit, the two or more 20-ampere small-appliance branch circuits required by 210.11(C)(1) shall serve all wall and floor receptacle outlets covered by 210.52(A), all countertop outlets covered by 210.52(C), and receptacle outlets for refrigeration equipment.

    The appliance garage is covered by simply talking about it 210.52(C)(5), mentioning its name. Isn't that covered?

    The receptacle in the 22" wall in the dinning room on a SABC, however, would be prohibited using the same logic, it doesn't cover walls that are under 24"....

    Jim
    New Hampshire

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  • charlie b
    replied
    The difference, Larry, is that an applicance garage does not take up all of the counter space, from the back wall to the front edge of the counter. A sink or major appliance would take up most, if not all, of that space. So it would not seem, to me at least, that the appliance garage separates the counter into two independent counter wall spaces.

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  • LarryFine
    replied
    I consider garage receptacles to be SA receptacles, to require GFCI protection, and can either share other SA circuits or have their own. I usually give them two duplexes (or a "quad").

    My only contention is that a garage, or any other cabinetry that interrupts the countertop-wall line, separates the countertop space as far as required receptacle locating is concerned.

    To me, this is akin to the way a sink or major appliance divides counters, peninsulas, and islands into separate surface spaces.

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  • Jim W in Tampa
    replied
    OK just where am i thinking wrong ? That SA circuit is already gfci protected,only a few feet away from the last SA and there is no limit as to how many receptacles can be on it.So why would we not tap into that SA circuit ??????????

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  • JohnJ0906
    replied
    Originally posted by Captkirk360
    absolutly it should be Gfi protected. What kind of appliences do you think people use in a kitchen or dinning room. Blenders, food processors, coffee makers etc and all of these appliances have liquid in them. Hence the mighty Gfi.
    Logical, Captain

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  • Captkirk360
    replied
    appliance garage

    absolutly it should be Gfi protected. What kind of appliences do you think people use in a kitchen or dinning room. Blenders, food processors, coffee makers etc and all of these appliances have liquid in them. Hence the mighty Gfi.

    Leave a comment:

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