Whirlpool tub bond lug

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morepower

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morepower

morepower

I'm surprised that no one has taken the time to look at the motor's nameplate. I have come across a lot of motors that, although they have a lug, are identified as being double insulated, and direct the installer not to bond to any metallic system. I've had electrician's tell me that they have been instructed by other inspectors that if there is a lug, then it is meant to be bonded. Be careful when listening to inspectors.
 
tonyou812

tonyou812

Senior Member
Location
North New Jersey
it would really take someone like an inspector to make me run a "bonding wire"all the way back to the panel because someone who designed it doesnt really grasp the concept of bonding and that in all cases a egc is run.
 
russ

russ

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Location
Burbank IL
I'm surprised that no one has taken the time to look at the motor's nameplate. I have come across a lot of motors that, although they have a lug, are identified as being double insulated, and direct the installer not to bond to any metallic system. I've had electrician's tell me that they have been instructed by other inspectors that if there is a lug, then it is meant to be bonded. Be careful when listening to inspectors.
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So the manufacturer of this double insulated motor that is designed not to be bonded, put a lug on the motor and then prints instructions saying don't put any thing under this lug?
 
jango

jango

Senior Member
jack horner said:
680.74 Bonding
All metal piping systems and all grounded metal parts in contact with the circulating water shall be bonded together using a copper bonding jumper, insulated, covered, or bare, not smaller than 8 AWG solid.

Only metal piping systems and grounded metal parts are required to be bonded. If you don't have any of these then this will not apply to you.
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Can these bonding points be at completely non-accessible locations once the tub is permanently set in concrete?
 
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morepower

Member
morepower

morepower

Wow M.D., it looks like the installer is stuck on this one. 110.3 would prevail imo, but it makes no sense to me. It's definitely allowed by 250.54, but I can't see any purpose for it.
 
M. D.

M. D.

Senior Member
I found this in a U.L. marking guide dated Jan. 2007

Double Insulation ? Hydromassage bathtubs may utilize double insulated pumps. These pumps
are marked ?Double Insulated? or ?Double Insulation.? Double insulated pumps intended for permanent
connection to the supply may or may not have provision to terminate an equipment grounding
conductor. Cord-connected double insulated pumps may be provided with a power supply cord
terminating in a nongrounding type attachment plug. Double insulated pumps are not provided with a
pressure wire connector for equipotential bonding.
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Does this mean if it has a pressure lug , that it is not a double insulated pump?
 
M. D.

M. D.

Senior Member
russ__20000 said:
manufactures instructions is not the same as instructions of listing and labeling.
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Have you anything to back up that statement??

Here is what I found

1.0 UL LISTING, CLASSIFICATION, AND FIELD EVALUATION INFORMATION
1.1
(NW)
(W)
Q.
Manufacturer?s installation instructions ?recommendations.? Some manufacturer?s installation instructions include ?recommendations? that are not required by the NEC? or other Model Code. How does UL view such ?recommendations?? Specifically, for a hydromassage bathtub, the NEC? requires accessibility. A manufacturer?s installation instructions recommend a certain sized opening for such accessibility, but don?t say that it is mandatory. Instructions for smoke alarms ?recommend? a detector in every room, which is not required by building or fire codes. Does the AHJ have the authority to ask for the installation instructions? Is UL doing anything to standardize the terminology that installation instructions use?
A.
Installation instructions provided with UL Listed products are reviewed as part of the Listing investigation. Manufacturer?s recommendations that are part of the installation instructions should be followed in order to comply with NEC? Section 110.3(B). The AHJ should expect all installation instructions provided with UL Listed equipment to be available for review at the time of inspection.
If an AHJ believes that the manufacturer?s recommendations in the installation instructions exceed what is necessary for a safe installation; then NEC? Section 90.4 gives the AHJ the prerogative to approve the installation.
More than one Model Code regulates many different installations in the built environment. Smoke alarms are an excellent example of this, since multiple Model Codes address requirements for their installation; including the International Residential Code? (IRC?) and NFPA 72, the National Fire Alarm Code?. When this situation exists, the installation instructions will then reflect the installation requirements found in each of the governing Codes.
If an AHJ believes that a product?s installation instructions conflict with the NEC? or other Model Code, please contact a Regulatory Services staff member at 1-800-595-9844.
 
don_resqcapt19

don_resqcapt19

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Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
M.D.
Installation instructions provided with UL Listed products are reviewed as part of the Listing investigation. Manufacturer’s recommendations that are part of the installation instructions should be followed in order to comply with NEC? Section 110.3(B).
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Then UL can not have "classified breakers". The instructions for all panels specify the use of OEM breakers, yet UL says you can use classified breakers in any panel that they are classified for use in in violation of the manufacturer's instructions. UL can't have it both ways. If the above statement is fact, then there is no code complaint way to use a classified breaker. It is my opinion that only the instructions that are an actual part of the listing and labeling are required to be followed per 110.3(B). All other instructions are manufacturer's recommendations and non compliance is not a code violation, however it could cause issues in a civil court case.
Don
 
M. D.

M. D.

Senior Member
don_resqcapt19 said:
M.D.

All other instructions are manufacturer's recommendations and non compliance is not a code violation,
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Don, Ican't find anything to back that up .

I can find things such as this from a discussion between U.L. folks and electrical Inspectors ,that indicate that the installation instructions are to be followed.I respect your opinion and I am not saying you are wong however I think it would be unwise to disregard the instructions even in the form of recommendations . I'm not sure how I would determine what instructions were provided to the testing agency in order for the equipment to become listed?


Always refer to the installation instructions and
markings on the product to identify what installations
and applications for which the light was Listed. The
instructions will identify if the light was intended for
use in an open or closed cabinet and proper spacing of
the lights and installation into or under shelves. With
out the installation instructions compliance with NEC
Section 110.3(B) cannot be determined
Always refer to the installation instructions and
markings on the product to identify what installations
and applications for which the light was Listed. The
instructions will identify if the light was intended for
use in an open or closed cabinet and proper spacing of
the lights and installation into or under shelves. With
out the installation instructions compliance with NEC
Click to expand...
Section 110.3(B) cannot be determined
 
Dennis Alwon

Dennis Alwon

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Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
M. D. said:
I can find things such as this from a discussion between U.L. folks and electrical Inspectors ,that indicate that the installation instructions are to be followed.
Section 110.3(B) cannot be determined
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I am not sure that you can infer from these comments about some sort of puck light or uc light to a generalization of all products. Perhaps one can but it seems like this comment was specific to that product for some reason.

I have mentioned in an earlier thread about P&S GFCI recep. If you read the mfg instruction it will not allow you to have more than 4 wires in a box excluding the ground or more than a 2 wire cable excluding ground. Where did they get that from?
 
J

JohnConnolly

Senior Member
Location
Phoenix AZ
This is what drives me nuts and makes me hate my job. My whirlpool tub has no lug, the motor doesn't say double insulated and the installation instructions have the boilerplate "....#8 wire required...." included.

Just tell me what to do and I'll do it but dont make me read minds.:mad:
 
don_resqcapt19

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
M.D.
I can find things such as this from a discussion between U.L. folks and electrical Inspectors ,that indicate that the installation instructions are to be followed.
Click to expand...
My problem is that UL is saying that you have to follow the provided instructions except when they can make money by classifying breakers for use in violation of the instructions provided with the breaker panel. Either the provided instructions apply all the time or they apply none of the time. They can't have it both ways.
Don
 
don_resqcapt19

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
I just choose to read the rules as I see them. 110.3(B) only says that you have to follow the instructions that are an actual part of the listing and labeling. I do not believe that most instructions are an actual part of the listing and labeling. In my opinion, as long as there are classified breakers, the only instructions that are required to be followed by 110.3(B) are those found in the UL white book as those are the only ones that are part of the actual product testing.
Don
 
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