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    #31
    Here in MA the inspector is actually specifically mandated by changes to 90.4 to accept listed products when used per the listing.

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      #32
      my question evolves into "Why cut/bend and take any chances when UL fittings are readily available?"


      $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
      Sometimes I don't know whether I'm the boxer or the bag.

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        #33
        Originally posted by CAM View Post
        Really? Are you the AHJ there? In what jurisdiction? I can give you dozens of the largest metropolitan markets (and several States) in the US where the chief inspectors have unequivocally stated the opposite. Not once has an inspector ever even brought it up. They have stated that cutting/bending IS a violation of:
        392.5(A), (B), (C), (D). They have also said they will not accept the modification of the UL labeled products as depicted in the photos provided in my original post.
        Can you provide any written local code that prohibits these types of modifications? If not a written code, how about an official general ruling in writing, maybe something from a plan review, or is an automatic rejection of a UL classified item a surprise the chief inspectors spring after installation?

        I have previously quoted how your simply picture can easily not in be in violation of any part of 392.5. potential violations depend only on how it is actually installed, just as it does with any other field modified product

        Cable tray is not a UL Listed item, it is only UL classified. As such it is not a standard alone product and must be used with other UL devices. At least one manufacturer (Cooper B-Line) shows how many splice kits are required for their UL classification.
        http://www.cooperbline.com/pdf/Flyer...ed-Splices.pdf
        pages 2 and 3.
        Just because you can, doesn't mean you should.

        Comment


          #34
          Originally posted by jim dungar View Post
          Cable tray is not a UL Listed item, it is only UL classified. As such it is not a standard alone product and must be used with other UL devices. At least one manufacturer (Cooper B-Line) shows how many splice kits are required for their UL classification.
          http://www.cooperbline.com/pdf/Flyer...ed-Splices.pdf
          pages 2 and 3.
          And you will note that their last entry, the one for the 90 degree kit, which requires cutting the tray IS NOT UL Classified!

          Comment


            #35
            Originally posted by roger View Post
            And once again, no matter how much you dislike it, Hoffman allows it and includes it in their instructions, which means an inspector would have to allow it as well.

            Roger
            Speechless. Completely speechless. Does that argument work on AHJ's in your market???

            Comment


              #36
              Originally posted by CAM View Post
              Speechless. Completely speechless. Does that argument work on AHJ's in your market???
              Absolutely, and even in FL. If an AHJ was to refuse to accept it they would have to make a formal amendment to 110.3(B). Are you use to AHJ's making up their own rules?

              Once again, what is your real issue with this? Can you provide some documentation that shows catastrophic events, personal injury, property damage, or death that can be contributed to this practice?

              Roger
              Moderator

              Comment


                #37
                Originally posted by roger View Post
                Absolutely, and even in FL. If an AHJ was to refuse to accept it they would have to make a formal amendment to 110.3(B). Are you use to AHJ's making up their own rules?

                Roger
                I have statements from AHJ's in *major* metropolitan markets in FL, GA, DC, TX, AZ, CA, WA, NY, MD, NV, CO, NE, etc, all saying that this (cutting/bending basket tray) is a Code violation. I am not here to ask whether installers agree since it doesn't seem to matter. When I was a contractor, I never won an argument with an inspector and furthermore found the attempt extremely counter-productive.

                Ironically, the best argument you posted was a manufacturer who does not have UL labeling on their product requiring cutting/bending. If you look to other top tier manufacturers (B-Line is a very good company) you'll find the same thing although sometimes hidden in fine print in the back where you see installation instructions.

                You can try to argue the point and there's no penalty to arguing it with me because I do this for a living and don't mind at all. But the suggestion that one should ignore what the AHJ's have said and then argue with them is going to cost somebody a whole lot of money.

                If you'd like I can post some of the AHJ's specific statements on the practice in question. Then again, if you don't work in major markets and have a local AHJ who you can push around then it's irrelevant to you and I don't understand what your interest is.

                Comment


                  #38
                  Fittings cost less

                  Originally posted by qcroanoke View Post
                  my question evolves into "Why cut/bend and take any chances when UL fittings are readily available?"


                  $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
                  I take this to mean you think the fittings cost more? Except that they do not. In fact, for all the manufacturers of which I am aware, it costs substantially less to buy a fitting than to send a couple guys with a bolt cutter to the jobsite for a day (at $75/hr or more loaded cost) where they butcher three sticks of tray to scrap before they get one that looks good enough to install. Add the benefit of never having lost time or injury claims for the constant cuts the guys will get from the razor sharp points of the cut wires and it's really not even a contest from a cost standpoint.

                  Comment


                    #39
                    Originally posted by CAM View Post
                    I have statements from AHJ's in *major* metropolitan markets in FL, GA, DC, TX, AZ, CA, WA, NY, MD, NV, CO, NE, etc, all saying that this (cutting/bending basket tray) is a Code violation. I am not here to ask whether installers agree since it doesn't seem to matter. When I was a contractor, I never won an argument with an inspector and furthermore found the attempt extremely counter-productive.
                    Not meaning to sound cocky but, all I can say is I'm sorry. I have won a good number of challenges and even in FL.
                    Originally posted by CAM View Post
                    Ironically, the best argument you posted was a manufacturer who does not have UL labeling on their product requiring cutting/bending. If you look to other top tier manufacturers (B-Line is a very good company) you'll find the same thing although sometimes hidden in fine print in the back where you see installation instructions.

                    You can try to argue the point and there's no penalty to arguing it with me because I do this for a living and don't mind at all. But the suggestion that one should ignore what the AHJ's have said and then argue with them is going to cost somebody a whole lot of money.
                    I'll let them challenge NEMA then. Let me direct you to (and maybe you should show this to the AHJ's you say agree with you) page 32 and 33 of this NEMA document so regardless of the NEC allowing it so does NEMA

                    You will have to set up an account at the NEMA site, it's easy and free.

                    Originally posted by CAM View Post
                    If you'd like I can post some of the AHJ's specific statements on the practice in question. Then again, if you don't work in major markets and have a local AHJ who you can push around then it's irrelevant to you and I don't understand what your interest is.
                    I work in mostly large markets with very thorough and tough inspectors but, most know the NEC and will accept it when they make mistakes.

                    Before you post the AHJ's comments, please direct them to the NEMA link so they can tell us how they know more than NEMA.

                    In short, you don't have to ask installers anything, you're real battle is going to be with NEMA and the NEC 110.3(B)



                    Roger
                    Moderator

                    Comment


                      #40
                      Back to the point

                      Having taken the weekend off and given this a little thought, I'd like to get my question back on track. I'm here for market research purposes primarily. And the market for wire mesh basket tray is 100% commercial and predominantly in big cities. The "commercial" electrical guys in the small town where I lived for the last 20 years wouldn't know a basket tray from a shelf.

                      And I've been around the block a time or two and know how unnecessarily and pointlessly argumentative most online forums are. This one seems a little better than most, but I still see some argument only for the sake of argument.

                      Is there anybody here who is an active engineer or commercial contractor (and here I am looking for PM's not inside wiremen - we all know the inside wiremen get stuck with whatever the PM chooses most of the time regardless of whether it's right or wrong) who uses or has used basket tray on a large job?

                      And for the sake of full disclosure, for those who didn't look at my profile to see where my interests are, I am on the sales side of the business for a manufacturer. I have a deep understanding of what it takes to develop a product, get it through UL, and get it to market successfully. I also have around 10 years experience on the commercial side of electrical contracting in business development roles.

                      I'm interested in all constructive opinion, but if you're a residential electrician in farm country please don't argue about the Code applicability or how UL evaluates products - it's not helping anybody.

                      Comment


                        #41
                        Originally posted by CAM View Post
                        And you will note that their last entry, the one for the 90 degree kit, which requires cutting the tray IS NOT UL Classified!
                        Just because you can, doesn't mean you should.

                        Comment


                          #42
                          Originally posted by roger View Post
                          I'll let them challenge NEMA then. Let me direct you to (and maybe you should show this to the AHJ's you say agree with you) page 32 and 33 of this NEMA document so regardless of the NEC allowing it so does NEMA

                          You will have to set up an account at the NEMA site, it's easy and free.

                          In short, you don't have to ask installers anything, you're real battle is going to be with NEMA and the NEC 110.3(B)


                          Roger
                          NEMA VE-2 is a voluntary standard that may or may not have any applicability on a job depending on the plans and specs. But since you mention VE-2, you should read the fine print on page 33 under section 4.7 and then the NOTE. Wire mesh basket tray, under the current VE-2, should not be used as an equipment grounding conductor because it is going to be cut/bent.

                          That is self-contradictory with the UL Classification of the product as an EGC.

                          It is a reflection of the FACT that NEMA is an *association of manufacturers* and it's standards are developed by majority vote. VE-2 concedes that wire mesh basket tray, when cut and bent, doesn't function under the one actual and impartial standard to which it could be compared (performance as EGC under NEC).

                          You might also know that the committee responsible for VE-2 meets this month to review the document and you can see the manufacturers who will be responsible for the content thereof at http://cabletrays.com/members.html

                          Comment


                            #43
                            I challenge you to find anything from any major manufacturer claiming that what is shown in my original post photos will or remotely could pass UL testing.

                            While you're looking you will undoubtedly come across technical bulletins and installation instructions explicitly telling you NOT to do what the photos show if the tray will be used as EGC. And, again, UL looks ONLY at whether tray can perform as EGC - nothing else (at least in US).

                            If you have trouble finding relevant documents send me a private message with your email and I will email them to you.

                            Comment


                              #44
                              Originally posted by CAM View Post
                              Having taken the weekend off and given this a little thought, I'd like to get my question back on track. I'm here for market research purposes primarily. And the market for wire mesh basket tray is 100% commercial and predominantly in big cities. The "commercial" electrical guys in the small town where I lived for the last 20 years wouldn't know a basket tray from a shelf.

                              And I've been around the block a time or two and know how unnecessarily and pointlessly argumentative most online forums are. This one seems a little better than most, but I still see some argument only for the sake of argument.

                              Is there anybody here who is an active engineer or commercial contractor (and here I am looking for PM's not inside wiremen - we all know the inside wiremen get stuck with whatever the PM chooses most of the time regardless of whether it's right or wrong) who uses or has used basket tray on a large job?

                              And for the sake of full disclosure, for those who didn't look at my profile to see where my interests are, I am on the sales side of the business for a manufacturer. I have a deep understanding of what it takes to develop a product, get it through UL, and get it to market successfully. I also have around 10 years experience on the commercial side of electrical contracting in business development roles.

                              I'm interested in all constructive opinion, but if you're a residential electrician in farm country please don't argue about the Code applicability or how UL evaluates products - it's not helping anybody.
                              Have you even taken the time to look at the profiles of those in this thread?

                              There are engineers and PM's replying to you in this thread, I am a PM for a fairly large company with offices in two states, one of my current projects has more than 7,000 feet of wire mesh tray.

                              We install tray of all types regularly.

                              Roger
                              Moderator

                              Comment


                                #45
                                Originally posted by roger View Post
                                Have you even taken the time to look at the profiles of those in this thread?

                                There are engineers and PM's replying to you in this thread, I am a PM for a fairly large company with offices in two states, one of my current projects has more than 7,000 feet of wire mesh tray.

                                We install tray of all types regularly.

                                Roger
                                Excellent, then you will be directly effected if your AHJ is paying attention. And this goes right back to my original post and question: why have they not paid attention in the past? Every one I have spoken with or corresponded with has said what my photos show is a violation, but the few I thought to ask about why it's been allowed to continue for a decade could only say, "it's telephone wire and we haven't paid much attention."

                                But what is today used as a pathway for "telephone wire" is still a cable tray and still allowed for all the different cable types listed in 392.3(A). So when that "telephone wire" is removed because it's abandoned and isn't permanent plenum rated the tray sits empty until somebody needs it for electrical service. Then it carries 500mcm energized to 600V and 400A or more. Then what was overlooked becomes deadly.

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