Code Compliant Cable Tray?

[jim dungar]

Quote:
2005 NEC 392.5(E) which is currently adopted by the State of Florida ? specifically calls for fittings to change direction ? 392.5 (A), (B), (C), (D), (are) also affected by field modifications and would not be acceptable.
Victor Lombardi Acting Electrical Director
Miami-Dade County Building Department
Again, opinions vary, but I have seen a lot of differing reasons why my photos are violations.. ..

All of the states in which I am registered are on the 2008 NEC. The verbiage in 392.5 uses phrases like "or equivalent" and "other suitable".

If the manufacturer's splice plates are suitable for maintaining the structural integrity of a straight run of tray, they probably do not compromise it when used to create the 90? bend in your photo.

A single photo is not sufficient to pass judgment on a classified product. The entire installation must be judged as a completed assembly.

 

[CAM]

NC AHJ from today:

If this cable tray is being used in a manner that is not listed by UL and thereby voids the UL label as you stated then it will not be acceptable by the Durham City-County Inspections Department.

As you stated 392.5(E) requires fittings to be installed when a change in direction is made.

392.7(B)(1) does not require cable tray sections and fittings to be listed when being used as an ?equipment grounding conductor? but it requires them to be identified. To determine this identification one might use the UL label to determine the identification.

Danny Thomas
Chief Electrical Inspector
Durham CIty-County Inspections

 

[CAM]

another NC AHJ from today:

It is not our intention to approve field modifications to UL listed products. If this modification has happen in the past, we have simply assumed that it was factory installation approved.
We agree that once you cut the wire mesh it loses its UL listing. My question is when you have a 10' section and only need 8' do you cut the last 2' off or do you order a 8' section.


Mark Tighe
Senior Electrical Inspector
Winston-Salem, NC

 

[jim dungar]

It is clear from the replies you are posting, the respondents are not being presented with any facts or arguments other than those you choose to provide them.

 

[CAM]

It is clear from the replies you are posting, the respondents are not being presented with any facts or arguments other than those you choose to provide them.

Everybody is entitled to their own opinion.

There is, however, only one set of FACTS. You may not (and obviously don't) like them, but that does nothing to change what they are.

 

[augie47]

yawnnnnnnnn

 

[iwire]

Everybody is entitled to their own opinion.

There is, however, only one set of FACTS. You may not (and obviously don't) like them, but that does nothing to change what they are.

What fact have you presented here? You have presented your own opinion. An opinion I neither like it or dislike, I just do not agree with.

Now lets see what you asked these AHJs.

Did you ask

'Can listed equipment be modified in the field?'

Or did you ask.

'Can can listed equipment be modified in the field per the installation instructions?'


You have put up many 'challenges' so here is one for you.

Where can I find permission in the NEC to cut a 4.5" round hole in a listed switchgear enclosure in order to enter a raceway?

 

[iwire]

another NC AHJ from today:

Again selective reading issues plague you. :grin:

It is not our intention to approve field modifications to UL listed products. If this modification has happen in the past, we have simply assumed that it was factory installation approved.

In this case it is 'factory approved if it is an instruction provided by manufacturer.

We agree that once you cut the wire mesh it loses its UL listing. My question is when you have a 10' section and only need 8' do you cut the last 2' off or do you order a 8' section.

Here it seems to me this AHJ is pointing out the absurdity of your question.

Here is another challenge for you. Where can I find permission to shorten a length of conduit?

It is UL listed and I have never seen any instructions that say I may cut it.

 

[jim dungar]

There is, however, only one set of FACTS. You may not (and obviously don't) like them, but that does nothing to change what they are.

You must not like them either because you ignore so many of them.
I have continually said the UL label is important when the tray is an EGC.

Fact: cable tray is not required to be used as an EGC.

Another fact: cable tray is not UL labeled as a support for anything. So according to some of your inspector's comments; tray should never be allowed to have conductors installed in it, in the words of the UL Label it is "... AN EQUIPMENT GROUNDING CONDUCTOR ONLY".

Still another: UL acknowledges that some tray installations may need bonding jumpers installed in the field. The UL White book specifically says, "Assemblies not provided with positive mechanical grounding connections are intended to be bonded with mechanical connectors or bonding jumpers provided by the installer, in accordance with 392.7(B)(4) of the NEC."

 

[qcroanoke]

I have a suspicion we are being trolled .Roger

I think it's Laszlo's evil twin. LOL

 

[mivey]

There is, however, only one set of FACTS.

And they are compiled right here:
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/

 

[CAM]

Full Disclosure

Full Disclosure

All of the states in which I am registered are on the 2008 NEC. .The verbiage in 392.5 uses phrases like "or equivalent" and "other suitable".

In the interests of full disclosure, it is very very illuminating that you have not owned up to the fact that your employer is a FRENCH company that MAKES BASKET TRAY and officially ADVOCATES CUTTING AND FIELD MODIFYING. A FRENCH company that does NOT MAKE FITTINGS.

Very interesting indeed. It seems now we know the reason you ignore what the inspectors have written and keep re-posting the same things that do nothing to advance the discussion or remotely answer the original post.

Illuminating too that you posted B-Line's catalog and tried to bring them in to the mix rather than bringing in your own FRENCH products. Why try to drag a fine American company in the mud when they simply acquired that business last year from a former joint venture with the FRENCH? Ultimately I have confidence that American companies will do the right thing in America. FRENCH companies, on the other hand, are worse than Chinese companies in their behavior in the American market...

At least you're posting in English...

And you call me a "troll" indeed.

 

[CAM]

And they are compiled right here:
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/

Nice

Anything the government publishes can only be true right? Especially the CIA..

 

[jim dungar]

In the interests of full disclosure, it is very very illuminating that you have not owned up to the fact that your employer is a FRENCH company that MAKES BASKET TRAY and officially ADVOCATES CUTTING AND FIELD MODIFYING. A FRENCH company that does NOT MAKE FITTINGS.

Very interesting indeed. It seems now we know the reason you ignore what the inspectors have written and keep re-posting the same things that do nothing to advance the discussion or remotely answer the original post.

Illuminating too that you posted B-Line's catalog and tried to bring them in to the mix rather than bringing in your own FRENCH products. Why try to drag a fine American company in the mud when they simply acquired that business last year from a former joint venture with the FRENCH? Ultimately I have confidence that American companies will do the right thing in America. FRENCH companies, on the other hand, are worse than Chinese companies in their behavior in the American market...

At least you're posting in English...

And you call me a "troll" indeed.

I have been consistent in my discussion as a PE. Nothing in my discussion has been to serve my interests. It is not my fault that, UL labels cable tray as a conductor only and not as a method of support.

I do find it flattering, that you took the time do some investigation into my background. My forum profile is accurate, for the past five years I have been a power system engineer for an engineering firm that is licensed in most States of the US. It has been +20 years since I was a sales engineer for Square D products.

 

[CAM]

Nothing in my discussion has been to serve my interests.

It has been +20 years since I was a sales engineer for Square D products.

http://www.linkedin.com/pub/jim-dungar/14/a8b/a65

Well that's illuminating too. I didn't know LinkedIn was around 20 years ago and it says that you work for a FRENCH manufacturer of basket tray that does not make fittings required under NEC. Funny that American manufacturers of tray do make those fittings and the FRENCH do not. And that you argue so vocally against using fittings.

Hmmm...

 

[mivey]

That's it Jim. You've been outed. Now we all know you've been secretly working for the French basket tray underground.

 

[jim dungar]

http://www.linkedin.com/pub/jim-dungar/14/a8b/a65

Well that's illuminating too. I didn't know LinkedIn was around 20 years ago and it says that you work for a FRENCH manufacturer of basket tray that does not make fittings required under NEC. Funny that American manufacturers of tray do make those fittings and the FRENCH do not. And that you argue so vocally against using fittings.

Hmmm...

I am not involved in the sale of products I work as a consulting engineer. I honestly have no clue what basket tray products some division of my parent company may or may not make. If, as you say, Schneider Electric has a group that makes basket tray, is it even sold in the US?

And, by the way. When did this turn into an 'us versus them' argument.
I have been sticking to the facts. There is no UL label available for cable tray used as a support method only and not as an EGC.

 

[wwhitney]

Tray can be mechanically discontinuous. If, instead of the crazy cut/bent nonsense you simply stopped mechanically and restarted where the obstacle ended then you would be fine as long as the span was no more than 60" and you were electrically continuous with the correct size bonding jumper.

Are you suggesting that a mechanically discontinuous installation with a bonding jumper is OK, while a "crazy cut/bent" installation with a bonding jumper is not OK? I don't see how the extra basket in the "crazy cut/bent" installation is going to negatively impact either support or suitability as an EGC.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[jumper]

I am not involved in the sale of products I work as a consulting engineer.

Age old political tactic, when your argument fails: you go for character assassination.

And, by the way. When did this turn into an 'us versus them' argument.

Since post #1

I have been sticking to the facts.

That is why the OP is so annoyed.

 

[CAM]

Age old political tactic, when your argument fails: you go for character assassination.

You mean like calling me a "troll"? That kind of character assassination?

Sounds about right to me..:roll: