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    210.52-- Code Violation?

    Here is an article from EC&M by Brian J. McPartland, NEC Consultant




    This rough-in inspection creates the starting point for an interesting discussion. The concern for receptacles at coun­tertops in residential occupancies is based on the fact that a modern kitchen now has a variety of cord- and plug-connected appliances. The Code mandates receptacle outlets be installed so that "no point along the wall is more than 600 mm (24 in.) measured horizontally from a receptacle outlet." But as you can clearly see in the photo, there are no outlet boxes installed on the wall directly behind the full length of this large kitchen window. So one might assume this is clearly a violation of NEC requirements. But does this really constitute a Code violation? I would rule it does not.
    They say I shot a man named Gray and took his wife to Italy
    She inherited a million bucks and when she died it came to me
    I can't help it if I'm lucky

    #2
    Here is the more of the article.

    First, the rule of part (C)(4) in 210.52 indicates that sinks essentially break countertops into separate pieces. In addition, the rule given in the Exception to 210.52(C)(l) says, "Recep­tacle outlets shall not be required on a wall directly behind a range, counter-mounted cooking unit or sink in the installation described in Figure 210.52(C)(l)." However, in a backward fashion, this Exception would require a receptacle behind the sink area if the amount of counter space located directly behind the sink was as described in the Figure. So the key question for us here is, "Does this Exception apply to the installation shown in the photo?" I say no, for two reasons.
    They say I shot a man named Gray and took his wife to Italy
    She inherited a million bucks and when she died it came to me
    I can't help it if I'm lucky

    Comment


      #3
      Here is the rest

      First, the basic rule and the Exception to 210.52(C)(l) refer to installation of receptacle outlets in the "wall counter space." Because there is no "wall" directly behind the sink, it seems that this installation would be excluded from the need for an outlet there. Second, even though the bay window's ledge may end up being greater than the 12-in. or 18-in. distance specified in the Exception to 210.52(C)(l), the window's ledge is not actually considered counter space. Because the rules in this part of 210.52 apply to countertops - and the final installation won't have counter space that is greater than the 12-in. or 18-in. criteria specified in the Exception - it seems reasonable to conclude this is not one of those instances where an outlet would be required behind the sink.
      Last edited by Dennis Alwon; 08-07-10, 08:50 PM.
      They say I shot a man named Gray and took his wife to Italy
      She inherited a million bucks and when she died it came to me
      I can't help it if I'm lucky

      Comment


        #4
        OK, Dennis I will jump in. I think it is a violation. The reason being 210.52 A 2 (2) counts a fixed panel in a door as wall space then what prevents the window from being counted as wall counter space in 210.52 C 1? However there is a lot of missing information from the photo you posted. How long is the sink? In the photo it "looks" as if there is wire stubbed out for possibly a tombstone type recpt. in the counter top or they are going to try and stretch 210.52 C 5 excpt. 2. It has been discussed here before regarding island recpt. The design of the counter top over hang created a code violation. The consensus was the counter top would have to be redone as to not create the overhang rule. So if it were called as a violation then some things would need to be addressed up to moving the window up to give room for a back splash that recpt. could be installed in.
        Organized people are people that are just too lazy to look for their stuff

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          #5
          I really hate when they publish photo's and commentary based on assumptions. The receptacles certainly could be going under the front edge of the counter top or in the top of the base cabinets. You wouldn't see that until after the cabinets and counter top are installed.
          Rob

          Moderator

          All responses based on the 2017 NEC unless otherwise noted

          Comment


            #6
            I think the point that the author is making is that there is no wall space over that area so no receptacle is required. I don't know a place on earth that would accept that logic but notheless that is what he is saying. I just thought it was an interesting and different point of view.

            BTW, the reason for all the post is that I wasn't allowed to post them in one post. I think it was because I scanned the article. On the last part of the article I figured I had to copy it and paste it unformatted back into Word and then copy and paste to the thread.
            They say I shot a man named Gray and took his wife to Italy
            She inherited a million bucks and when she died it came to me
            I can't help it if I'm lucky

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by infinity View Post
              I really hate when they publish photo's and commentary based on assumptions. The receptacles certainly could be going under the front edge of the counter top or in the top of the base cabinets. You wouldn't see that until after the cabinets and counter top are installed.
              That would be a violation -- article 210.52(C)(5) except 2. specifically allows this for islands and peninsulas.
              They say I shot a man named Gray and took his wife to Italy
              She inherited a million bucks and when she died it came to me
              I can't help it if I'm lucky

              Comment


                #8
                At some point the housebuilder (who knew from other projects that this would be a problem for the electrician) just gave in to the housewife so he can look like Goldenboy, and said yes we can put that bay window in flat to the countertop as you wish. Then he goes to the electrician and tells him "make this work". Then electrician has to cross fingers during rough inspection and final inspection that it won't suddenly become an issue. What is wrong about this is the header above the bay window could have been done differently, allowing a 4-6" raised backsplash step up to the window so the two outlets could go into that. But that is harder for the housebuilder to do than imposing on the sparky, so as always the builder takes the lazy route and sparky gets the shaft. Face this about every other month.
                85deg. an Sunny today.

                Comment


                  #9
                  We all have been thru this and usually it is the architects fault for not designing it properly but everyone is missing the point of the article,IMO.

                  Sure we must assume a 3' sink and the bay window much larger than that and we must assume there is no space above the counter also. From the picture none of this is evident but from the article we can infer much info.

                  If the window is at the same level as the countertop then the countertop would extend into the window and an outlet installed face up would not work. As I mentioned earlier that a recep. at the front of the cabinet would not meet code so there s no place to add one.

                  The authors point is that no recep. is needed. He has a valid point as article 210.52(C)(1) Wall Countertop Space

                  (1) Wall Countertop Spaces. A receptacle outlet shall be installed at each wall countertop space that is 300 mm (12 in.) or wider. Receptacle outlets shall be installed so that no point along the wall line is more than 600 mm (24 in.) measured horizontally from a receptacle outlet in that space.
                  Of course this is counter (no pun intended) intuitive to what we are trained to do. The idea is to cover the counter space but the NEC uses wall space. :-?

                  I guess I never realized this and was really caught off guard. I can't imagine an inspector falling for this.
                  They say I shot a man named Gray and took his wife to Italy
                  She inherited a million bucks and when she died it came to me
                  I can't help it if I'm lucky

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by Dennis Alwon View Post

                    The authors point is that no recep. is needed. He has a valid point as article 210.52(C)(1) Wall Countertop Space

                    Of course this is counter (no pun intended) intuitive to what we are trained to do. The idea is to cover the counter space but the NEC uses wall space. :-?
                    I guess I never realized this and was really caught off guard. I can't imagine an inspector falling for this.
                    Depends on your jurisdiction... 210.52(A)(2)(2) - a fixed panel can be a panel of glass [as in our discussion]. In a jurisdiction I used to work for the BO said the receptacles had to be installed...the problem lay with the designer/architect....If they designed it this way they could manage the fix.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by dana1028 View Post
                      Depends on your jurisdiction... 210.52(A)(2)(2) - a fixed panel can be a panel of glass [as in our discussion]. In a jurisdiction I used to work for the BO said the receptacles had to be installed...the problem lay with the designer/architect....If they designed it this way they could manage the fix.
                      I agree I see the window as wall space and recep. should be req. I usually use the sillite recep. in the case where there is a small level change to the window. They work well and are TR.

                      They say I shot a man named Gray and took his wife to Italy
                      She inherited a million bucks and when she died it came to me
                      I can't help it if I'm lucky

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by macmikeman View Post
                        Then electrician has to cross fingers during rough inspection and final inspection that it won't suddenly become an issue.
                        The smart electrician would point this out during rough inspection and clarify what would be expected at final, so it can be addressed while still relatively easy to do.
                        Master Electrician
                        Electrical Contractor
                        Richmond, VA

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by LarryFine View Post
                          The smart electrician would point this out during rough inspection and clarify what would be expected at final, so it can be addressed while still relatively easy to do.
                          Actually a smart electrician will cover for such instances in the bid proposal wording such as "it is imperative that the builder construct the premises in such a way as to allow proper placement of all required outlets and wiring methods." We know the electricians are smart, that isn't the problem here. Problem here is builder IQ.
                          85deg. an Sunny today.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by LarryFine View Post
                            The smart electrician would point this out during rough inspection and clarify what would be expected at final, so it can be addressed while still relatively easy to do.
                            The smart electrician will and the dumb builder or homeowner with then change the kitchen without regard.:grin:
                            Formerly J Erickson as username.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              I say it's a violation for this fact, that window is not required to be that big, it is simply that big, because someone thinks it looks good and since they are more worried about looks than safety, I don't have any sympathy for them.

                              They could have made that window 4" shorter and put a back splash there.

                              Don't make your problems my problems.
                              I can build anything you want if you draw a picture of it on the back of a big enough check.

                              There's no substitute for hard work....but that doesn't mean I'm going to give up trying to find one.

                              John Childress
                              Electrical Inspector
                              IAEI / CEI / C10
                              Certified Electrical Inspector

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