AHJ frustration

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ggunn

PE (Electrical), NABCEP certified
Location
Austin, TX, USA
Occupation
Electrical Engineer - Photovoltaic Systems
I design PV systems for installation all over the state of Texas. We have a constantly evolving document on our server with a running tally of all the different things we have to do to be compliant in each jurisdiction.

For example: We have one (and only one) AHJ that considers line side connected PV to be a separate service entrance, with a N-G bond in the disco and its own ground rod bonded to building ground. We have one AHJ that completely prohibits line side PV connections. We have one AHJ that requires all PV to be line side connected. We have one AHJ that requires all PV to be line side connected outside the customer's meter. And that's just the differences WRT line side PV; there are plenty of other issues upon which they do not agree.

Yeah, I know, I'm preaching to the choir. Can I get an AMEN? :D
 

Coppersmith

Senior Member
Location
Tampa, FL, USA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
Wow, what a competitive advantage you have over the other solar contractors. You guys can go in and get your jobs passed the first time due to your large database of AHJ lunacy, while your competitors will be spending too much money making changes. You can quote lower than your competitors and win more jobs. Congrats! ;)
 

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
That is one of the problems with the written word. It does not always convey what it's intention may be. NC is trying to clean up that stuff by making executive decisions on the most common code issues that are challenged.

I salute the state for trying this.

GGunn, is there a state inspector that you can call to make a state wide decision on these issues. If the state calls it one way the inspectors would have to accept his interpretation or the inspector can challenge the decision made by the state.
 

ggunn

PE (Electrical), NABCEP certified
Location
Austin, TX, USA
Occupation
Electrical Engineer - Photovoltaic Systems
GGunn, is there a state inspector that you can call to make a state wide decision on these issues. If the state calls it one way the inspectors would have to accept his interpretation or the inspector can challenge the decision made by the state.

No, such things are left entirely to local AHJ's. We have had cases where the inspector was just plain wrong, both from a code standpoint and with respect to The Way Electricity Works (one inspector was and possibly still is convinced that current can run both directions simultaneously in a conductor), and there was no appeal.
 

pv_n00b

Senior Member
Location
CA, USA
Every AHJ is King/Queen of their castle. It's one of the reasons all these plans to make universally accepted across all AHJs PV system designs always fail. People do not want to give up their local power. Unfortunately, a small number of them enjoy making other people's jobs harder.
 

Carultch

Senior Member
Location
Massachusetts
Wow, what a competitive advantage you have over the other solar contractors. You guys can go in and get your jobs passed the first time due to your large database of AHJ lunacy, while your competitors will be spending too much money making changes. You can quote lower than your competitors and win more jobs. Congrats! ;)

And then when a new inspector takes over for the previous inspector, the AHJ's specific "shirt pocket rules" retire with the previous inspector. The new inspector then has new "shirt pocket rules" that make your database no longer valid.
 

ggunn

PE (Electrical), NABCEP certified
Location
Austin, TX, USA
Occupation
Electrical Engineer - Photovoltaic Systems
And then when a new inspector takes over for the previous inspector, the AHJ's specific "shirt pocket rules" retire with the previous inspector. The new inspector then has new "shirt pocket rules" that make your database no longer valid.

We were dealing with one AHJ whose requirements were ridiculously complex and time consuming. Their plan reviewer quit and got a job with another Texas AHJ we deal with. Wanna guess what happened?
 

GoldDigger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Placerville, CA, USA
Occupation
Retired PV System Designer
We have one AHJ that requires all PV to be line side connected. We have one AHJ that requires all PV to be line side connected outside the customer's meter.

As in upstream of the customer's meter??Am I interpreting your description correctly that the installation would either require a separate production meter read by POCO or just making a gift of all produced power to POCO?
 

gadfly56

Senior Member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Professional Engineer, Fire & Life Safety
Every AHJ is King/Queen of their castle. It's one of the reasons all these plans to make universally accepted across all AHJs PV system designs always fail. People do not want to give up their local power. Unfortunately, a small number of them enjoy making other people's jobs harder.

You won't find that in NJ. In my previous job I dealt with AHJ's all over northern NJ for fire alarm. The folks down in Trenton are only too happy to reign in an officious AHJ if he's got it wrong.
 

Coppersmith

Senior Member
Location
Tampa, FL, USA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
And then when a new inspector takes over for the previous inspector, the AHJ's specific "shirt pocket rules" retire with the previous inspector. The new inspector then has new "shirt pocket rules" that make your database no longer valid.

Nope, database is still valid except for one entry that requires updating. There will always be periodic updates.
 
I design PV systems for installation all over the state of Texas. We have a constantly evolving document on our server with a running tally of all the different things we have to do to be compliant in each jurisdiction.

For example: We have one (and only one) AHJ that considers line side connected PV to be a separate service entrance, with a N-G bond in the disco and its own ground rod bonded to building ground. We have one AHJ that completely prohibits line side PV connections. We have one AHJ that requires all PV to be line side connected. We have one AHJ that requires all PV to be line side connected outside the customer's meter. And that's just the differences WRT line side PV; there are plenty of other issues upon which they do not agree.

Yeah, I know, I'm preaching to the choir. Can I get an AMEN? :D

Frustrating. I have to say, I find it kinda ironic too - This kinda thing isnt what Texas is supposed to be all about ;)

We have it very good here in upstate NY; Inspections are mostly 3rd party. If you dont like the inspector, you can call a different one!
 

ggunn

PE (Electrical), NABCEP certified
Location
Austin, TX, USA
Occupation
Electrical Engineer - Photovoltaic Systems
As in upstream of the customer's meter??Am I interpreting your description correctly that the installation would either require a separate production meter read by POCO or just making a gift of all produced power to POCO?

Yep, a separate meter read by the POCO connected upstream of the customer's meter. This is the "brainchild" of an engineer in a small POCO who wants to be able to compensate for PV production at a different rate than what they charge for energy. Austin Energy does this, but they put the PV meter inside the customer's meter and just do the math.
 

pv_n00b

Senior Member
Location
CA, USA
You won't find that in NJ. In my previous job I dealt with AHJ's all over northern NJ for fire alarm. The folks down in Trenton are only too happy to reign in an officious AHJ if he's got it wrong.

I wish that were the case in more places, definitely not happening in the western states I work in.
 

pv_n00b

Senior Member
Location
CA, USA
We have it very good here in upstate NY; Inspections are mostly 3rd party. If you dont like the inspector, you can call a different one!

This can work against you too if the AHJ selects the 3rd party. There are several AHJs in SoCal that use the same 3rd party review company who has strange PV interpretations. So instead of having just one problem AHJ every AHJ that signs up with this company adopts the same problems. When someone protests to an AHJ they just say they go with whatever the 3rd party says.
 

c_picard

Senior Member
Location
USA
I design PV systems for installation all over the state of Texas. We have a constantly evolving document on our server with a running tally of all the different things we have to do to be compliant in each jurisdiction.

For example: We have one (and only one) AHJ that considers line side connected PV to be a separate service entrance, with a N-G bond in the disco and its own ground rod bonded to building ground. We have one AHJ that completely prohibits line side PV connections. We have one AHJ that requires all PV to be line side connected. We have one AHJ that requires all PV to be line side connected outside the customer's meter. And that's just the differences WRT line side PV; there are plenty of other issues upon which they do not agree.

Yeah, I know, I'm preaching to the choir. Can I get an AMEN? :D

AMEN,

7, 386 = The number of distinct AHJs we track "special" requirements for, last I ran the query. *National* Electrical Code, Ha!
 

c_picard

Senior Member
Location
USA
This can work against you too if the AHJ selects the 3rd party. There are several AHJs in SoCal that use the same 3rd party review company who has strange PV interpretations. So instead of having just one problem AHJ every AHJ that signs up with this company adopts the same problems. When someone protests to an AHJ they just say they go with whatever the 3rd party says.

Can't imagine who you might be referring to :)
 

ggunn

PE (Electrical), NABCEP certified
Location
Austin, TX, USA
Occupation
Electrical Engineer - Photovoltaic Systems
AMEN,

7, 386 = The number of distinct AHJs we track "special" requirements for, last I ran the query. *National* Electrical Code, Ha!

There is an AHJ we deal with a lot who shall remain nameless. They have two solar inspectors, and their interpretations of the NEC sometimes are... special. To make it worse, their interpretations are not the same. Over the years we have learned which NEC compliant designs we simply cannot implement, and in many cases, which one of these guys we have to get in order for an installation to pass inspection.

They have no technical oversight; everyone north of them in their chain of command are administrators with no technical expertise; protests fall on deaf ears.
 

mwm1752

Senior Member
Location
Aspen, Colo
hopefully you make $ for your troublesome working conditions -- I usually correct those who say "just want to make you happy" with Code is minimum not personal
 

augie47

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Tennessee
Occupation
State Electrical Inspector (Retired)
In our areas most of the inspectors have worked with their tools in the past and have 1st hand experience with a good portion of the Code and with working with inspectors themselves. I kinda feel for the Solar guys as many of the inspectors, like myself, don't have that "on hands" experience with Solar and it's certainly not the easiest Section of the Code to understand and available classes can quickly go over your head. Maybe Mike can come up with a program "Solar Inspections for Dummies" :)
 

romex jockey

Senior Member
Location
Vermont
Occupation
electrician
Yeah, I know, I'm preaching to the choir. Can I get an AMEN? :D

I can't find the thread, nor remember the poster
:(
Apparently there's something of a interpretational problem between 705 and 230
:?
IE~ we don;t know if it's treated as an sds or not
:?
Not sure if any of this has been brought to the attention of the 'powers that be'....
:huh:
~RJ~
 
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