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    Mike Holt answer incorrect/incomplete?

    I recently received, via e-mail, the EC&M code question.
    http://ecmweb.com/nec/code_qa/code_qa_041708/

    Someone asked if backfed breakers had to be secured to the panel.

    Mike answered yes, they are required, per section 408.36 (D)


    What Mike did not mention was that is not a requirement for photovoltaic power source per section 690.64 (B) (5). These backfed breakers do have be identified, and they are other requirements, but the point is there is at least one instance where the clamp requirement is not required. Perhaps there are others I am not aware of, but I am surprised there was no mention of this in Mike's answer.

    Mike's answer implied ALL backfed breakers required clamping. While I might think that is a good idea, I have read enough threads here that hammer on guys who "think" and read many, many times "you might think it a good idea, but that is not what the code says."

    Perhaps I should make a submittal for 2011 code change to add an exception in 408.36 (D) that references 690.64 (B) (5).

    Then again, maybe I am wrong. I am referencing 2005 NEC and Mike's answers are based on 2008 NEC (I think). Perhaps 2008 is different in these two sections. I do not have a 2008 code book for research.

    Does it change in the '08?
    [COLOR=#444444][COLOR=#444444][COLOR=black][/COLOR][/COLOR]
    [COLOR=#444444][COLOR=#000000][/COLOR][/COLOR]
    [COLOR=#444444][COLOR=#000000]Faith is like electricity. You can't see it, but you can see the light.[/COLOR]
    [/COLOR]

    [/COLOR]

    #2
    Little change in 2008 but still ok

    They say I shot a man named Gray and took his wife to Italy
    She inherited a million bucks and when she died it came to me
    I can't help it if I'm lucky

    Comment


      #3
      From 2008
      "(6) Fastening. Listed plug-in-type circuit breakers backfed from utility-interactive inverters complying with 690.60 shall be permitted to omit the additional fastener normally required by 408.36(D) for such applications."

      I belive the reason these are not required is the inverter can sense a " no power situation" on the line side and will shut down the input to the breaker.

      Comment


        #4
        408.36(D) is the general requirement of Chapters 1-4.....

        90.3 Code Arrangement. This Code is divided into the
        introduction and nine chapters, as shown in Figure 90.3.
        Chapters 1, 2, 3, and 4 apply generally; Chapters 5, 6, and
        7 apply to special occupancies, special equipment, or other
        special conditions. These latter chapters supplement or
        modify the general rules. Chapters 1 through 4 apply except
        as amended by Chapters 5, 6, and 7 for the particular conditions.
        Chapter 8 covers communications systems and is not
        subject to the requirements of Chapters 1 through 7 except
        where the requirements are specifically referenced in Chapter
        8.
        Chapter 9 consists of tables applicable as referenced.
        [ROP 1-6]
        Annexes are not part of the requirements of this Code
        but are included for informational purposes only.

        So basically Mike is correct if he is answering to the general rule or in preference to the question asked..if the question was asked about back fed a photovolt. system then he would probably have explained the allowance listed in 690.64(B)(6)

        Comment


          #5
          [quote=radiopet]408.36(D) is the general requirement of Chapters 1-4.....

          90.3 Code Arrangement. This Code is divided into the
          introduction and nine chapters, as shown in Figure 90.3.
          Chapters 1, 2, 3, and 4 apply generally; Chapters 5, 6, and
          7 apply to special occupancies, special equipment, or other
          special conditions. These latter chapters supplement or
          modify the general rules. Chapters 1 through 4 apply except
          as amended by Chapters 5, 6, and 7 for the particular conditions.
          Chapter 8 covers communications systems and is not
          subject to the requirements of Chapters 1 through 7 except
          where the requirements are specifically referenced in Chapter
          8.
          Chapter 9 consists of tables applicable as referenced.
          [ROP 1-6]
          Annexes are not part of the requirements of this Code
          but are included for informational purposes only.

          [COLOR=red]So basically Mike is correct if he is answering to the general rule or in preference to the question asked..if the question was asked about back fed a photovolt. system then he would probably have explained the allowance listed in 690.64(B)(6)[/[/COLOR]quote]


          Here is the direct quote of the question:
          Q. I was told that a back-fed breaker needs to be bolted into the panel. Is this correct?

          I can see where your response to Mike's answer has some validity, but since the question was phrased this way, perhaps Mike should have at least acknowledged at least one exception to his answer.

          I am not picking on Mike. I have purchased literally thousands of dollars worth of videos and books from him over the years. I find his opinions and graphics excellent for the most part. I also enjoy the benefits of his generosity, both on this free website and with the countless other free offers he has on his home page website.

          I am just saying perhaps this one answer could have been clarified a little better. I am human too, and I do not always convey things in a clear manner. Mike has the added responsibility of thousands of people critiquing his answers, something which I and others do not have to concern ourselves.
          [COLOR=#444444][COLOR=#444444][COLOR=black][/COLOR][/COLOR]
          [COLOR=#444444][COLOR=#000000][/COLOR][/COLOR]
          [COLOR=#444444][COLOR=#000000]Faith is like electricity. You can't see it, but you can see the light.[/COLOR]
          [/COLOR]

          [/COLOR]

          Comment


            #6
            I seem to recall a point in time (late 90's, maybe) where you had to pay Mike for answers to code questions. EC&M is a free magazine. I'm not sure I'd complain about something I got for free, even if it was wrong. If I paid, I'd want my money back.

            Comment


              #7
              Mr. Holt is human just like the rest of us and most to the pencils he buys have erasers.

              Mike Whitt
              [COLOR=#000066]God answers Knee-Mail. [/COLOR]

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by jwelectric
                Mr. Holt is human just like the rest of us and most to the pencils he buys have erasers.
                Amen, The code is less then crystal clear and there is lots of room for interpretation. If it were crystal clear this forum would be much less interesting , you would have Q&A that would be Q, ground up or ground down ? A, ground down. thread complete.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by acrwc10
                  From 2008
                  "(6) Fastening. Listed plug-in-type circuit breakers backfed from utility-interactive inverters complying with 690.60 shall be permitted to omit the additional fastener normally required by 408.36(D) for such applications."

                  I belive the reason these are not required is the inverter can sense a " no power situation" on the line side and will shut down the input to the breaker.
                  I agree. As I've stated before, this is not a true backfed breaker.
                  I can build anything you want if you draw a picture of it on the back of a big enough check.

                  [COLOR=red]There's no substitute for hard work....but that doesn't mean I'm going to give up trying to find one.[/COLOR]

                  John Childress
                  Electrical Inspector
                  IAEI / CEI / C10
                  Certified Electrical Inspector

                  Comment

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