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    #16
    Originally posted by al hildenbrand View Post
    Great examples.

    By the 2017 NEC Definitions in Article 100, the fused switch (SSU) is on the end of a Feeder. A non-fused SSU is IN the Branch Circuit.

    Marky, for the purposes of running the cable or raceway method to your furnace, does calling the wiring method a Feeder change anything?
    That is the exact example I made in my statement of substantiation
    They say I shot a man named Gray and took his wife to Italy
    She inherited a million bucks and when she died it came to me
    I can't help it if I'm lucky

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      #17
      Originally posted by al hildenbrand View Post
      Great examples.

      By the 2017 NEC Definitions in Article 100, the fused switch (SSU) is on the end of a Feeder. A non-fused SSU is IN the Branch Circuit.

      Marky, for the purposes of running the cable or raceway method to your furnace, does calling the wiring method a Feeder change anything?
      In some cases in can change the size of the now feeder conductor. The feeder would be larger than the branch circuit. We had a thread on it a while ago
      They say I shot a man named Gray and took his wife to Italy
      She inherited a million bucks and when she died it came to me
      I can't help it if I'm lucky

      Comment


        #18
        Originally posted by Dennis Alwon View Post
        In some cases in can change the size of the now feeder conductor. The feeder would be larger than the branch circuit. We had a thread on it a while ago
        My question to Marky is specifically about his furnace . . . I am assuming he is describing a 15 Amp 120 Volt supply to a normal residential forced air furnace. . . maybe it is a hydronic boiler or a steam boiler, same 15 Amp 120 Volt supply. How does calling the wiring to the fused disconnect on the side of the furnace a feeder change anything?

        And about that thread. . . do you recall the link?
        Another Al in Minnesota

        Comment


          #19
          Originally posted by al hildenbrand View Post
          My question to Marky is specifically about his furnace . . . I am assuming he is describing a 15 Amp 120 Volt supply to a normal residential forced air furnace. . .
          Yes, that is correct.

          I also have a fused SSU that supplies power to the receptacles on my work bench. Just for definition's sake, is the cable that goes from the panel to the work bench SSU a feeder, or is it a branch circuit conductor, or maybe even both?
          Cheers and Stay Safe,

          Marky the Sparky

          Comment


            #20
            Originally posted by K8MHZ View Post
            I also have a fused SSU that supplies power to the receptacles on my work bench. Just for definition's sake, is the cable that goes from the panel to the work bench SSU a feeder, or is it a branch circuit conductor, or maybe even both?
            The conductors coming to the work bench SSU, when fused, are Feeder conductors. The conductors between the fuse LOAD side terminal and the Outlet are the Branch Circuit. The SSU is the "final OCPD."
            Another Al in Minnesota

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              #21
              Originally posted by Dennis Alwon View Post
              Yes but the proposal has an exception when there is an overcurrent protective device in between the load center and a piece of equipment only then I want that normally called feeder to be called a branch circuit. Thus the entire run between a panel and a single piece of equipment is a branch circuit whether there is a disconnect with overcurrent protective device in it or not
              what is the benefit of doing so?
              Bob

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                #22
                Originally posted by al hildenbrand View Post
                The conductors coming to the work bench SSU, when fused, are Feeder conductors. The conductors between the fuse LOAD side terminal and the Outlet are the Branch Circuit. The SSU is the "final OCPD."
                I can go along with that.
                Cheers and Stay Safe,

                Marky the Sparky

                Comment


                  #23
                  Originally posted by petersonra View Post
                  what is the benefit of doing so?

                  I believe here is the issue. 430.62 speaks of feeder for fixed motor load(s). This states that a feeder should be based on the largest overcurrent protective device for a motor plus the sum of other motors. We have only one motor so a 3 phase 20 hp motor @ 208 volts is 59.4 amps. Table 430.52 tells us to take 250% of the load for a polyphase inverse time breaker-- 148.5 amps

                  This means the feeder technically should be 148.5 amps instead of a conductor size for the branch circuit at 125% 74.25 amps



                  430.62 Rating or Setting — Motor Load.
                  (A) Specific Load. A feeder supplying a specific fixed motor
                  load(s) and consisting of conductor sizes based on 430.24 shall
                  be provided with a protective device having a rating or setting
                  not greater than the largest rating or setting of the branch circuit
                  short-circuit and ground-fault protective device for any
                  motor supplied by the feeder [based on the maximum permitted
                  value for the specific type of a protective device in accordance
                  with 430.52, or 440.22(A) for hermetic refrigerant motorcompressors],
                  plus the sum of the full-load currents of the
                  other motors of the group
                  They say I shot a man named Gray and took his wife to Italy
                  She inherited a million bucks and when she died it came to me
                  I can't help it if I'm lucky

                  Comment


                    #24
                    Maybe article 430.62 should be changed????
                    They say I shot a man named Gray and took his wife to Italy
                    She inherited a million bucks and when she died it came to me
                    I can't help it if I'm lucky

                    Comment


                      #25
                      430.62 only allows you to increase the size of the feeder OCPD above what the ampacity of the feeder conductors might otherwise limit you to. It is not the minimum rating of the feeder OCPD.
                      Bob

                      Comment


                        #26
                        Originally posted by petersonra View Post
                        430.62 only allows you to increase the size of the feeder OCPD above what the ampacity of the feeder conductors might otherwise limit you to. It is not the minimum rating of the feeder OCPD.

                        I believe it is--- read it again it states the max size of the short circuit , ground fault protective device
                        They say I shot a man named Gray and took his wife to Italy
                        She inherited a million bucks and when she died it came to me
                        I can't help it if I'm lucky

                        Comment


                          #27
                          Originally posted by Dennis Alwon View Post
                          I believe it is--- read it again it states the max size of the short circuit , ground fault protective device
                          430.62 Rating or Setting — Motor Load.
                          (A) Specific Load. A feeder supplying a specific fixed motor
                          load(s) and consisting of conductor sizes based on 430.24 shall
                          be provided with a protective device having a rating or setting
                          [COLOR="#FF0000"]not greater than[/COLOR] the largest rating or setting of the branch circuit
                          short-circuit and ground-fault protective device for any
                          motor supplied by the feeder [based on the maximum permitted
                          value for the specific type of a protective device in accordance
                          with 430.52, or 440.22(A) for hermetic refrigerant motorcompressors],
                          plus the sum of the full-load currents of the
                          other motors of the group
                          It does not seem to say what you think it says. "Not greater than" means a maximum upper limit is set, but it does not affect how low the rating can go.

                          All the "maximum permitted value" language does is allow you to apply the maximum allowed rating to the calculation as opposed to the rating of the actual OCPD used. It does not set a floor, but a ceiling.
                          Bob

                          Comment


                            #28
                            The examples on test materials say exactly what I think it says
                            They say I shot a man named Gray and took his wife to Italy
                            She inherited a million bucks and when she died it came to me
                            I can't help it if I'm lucky

                            Comment


                              #29
                              Originally posted by Dennis Alwon View Post
                              Maybe article 430.62 should be changed????
                              430.62 regulates "Part V. Motor Feeder Short-Circuit and Ground-Fault Protection."

                              430.62 directs you to 430.24 to size the conductors. That's in Part II.
                              Another Al in Minnesota

                              Comment


                                #30
                                Originally posted by al hildenbrand View Post
                                430.62 regulates "Part V. Motor Feeder Short-Circuit and Ground-Fault Protection."

                                430.62 directs you to 430.24 to size the conductors. That's in Part II.
                                If the wire between the panel and the disconnect is a feeder then that wire must be sized to the overcurrent protective device....NO? The branch circuit is sized per the motor
                                They say I shot a man named Gray and took his wife to Italy
                                She inherited a million bucks and when she died it came to me
                                I can't help it if I'm lucky

                                Comment

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