Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

So do you want to see how they addressed the Peninsular Issue?

Collapse
This topic is closed.
X
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

    #16
    Originally posted by MasterTheNEC View Post
    I think they should not have said "or" in the opening statement.
    If they said "and" in the opening statement, then that would cover islands and peninsulas very well, but it would be a large increase in the number of receptacles required for an island or peninsula. For example, any island that is wider than 6' in both dimensions would require the use of tombstones. A 3' x 6' island countertop space would require 3 receptacles, I think.

    One option would be to change "or" to "and" and change (b) to read something like:

    (b) Every point on the countertop or work surface is within 36 inches measured horizontally from one of the wall receptacle outlets in that space, or within 72 inches measured horizontally from some other receptacle outlet in that space.

    That could be stated in a negative form as (b) currently is, but the positive form is easier to understand in my opinion.

    This version would mean small to medium peninsulas and island countertop spaces would be covered by one non-wall receptacle outlet, and large areas might require more than one.

    Cheers, Wayne

    Comment


      #17
      Originally posted by wwhitney View Post
      If they said "and" in the opening statement, then that would cover islands and peninsulas very well, but it would be a large increase in the number of receptacles required for an island or peninsula. For example, any island that is wider than 6' in both dimensions would require the use of tombstones. A 3' x 6' island countertop space would require 3 receptacles, I think.

      One option would be to change "or" to "and" and change (b) to read something like:

      (b) Every point on the countertop or work surface is within 36 inches measured horizontally from one of the wall receptacle outlets in that space, or within 72 inches measured horizontally from some other receptacle outlet in that space.

      That could be stated in a negative form as (b) currently is, but the positive form is easier to understand in my opinion.

      This version would mean small to medium peninsulas and island countertop spaces would be covered by one non-wall receptacle outlet, and large areas might require more than one.

      Cheers, Wayne
      I am sure they can't wait for the Public Comments when its finally published as the First Draft. I am sure many will comment on this one.
      *All code responses are based on the 2017 National Electrical Code®[NEC®]

      Comment


        #18
        Originally posted by K8MHZ View Post
        My sister was nearly killed in 1960 when she was a few months old because she pulled on a cord connected to an electric coffee pot full of boiling coffee and the pot fell on her lap. She suffered 3rd degree burns to 40% of her body. She is 57 now and still suffers from her injuries since she had to spend months in a cast from the waist down and it affected how her legs and feet grew.
        Wow I'm sorry to hear that and that she had to go through such an injury. Modern coffee pots would do the same thing, maybe they should have magnetic breakaway cords like fry-daddy's have.

        I was referring more to the number of outlets where they have to be placed, and what not. a kitchen built even 10 years ago would not be up to today's code, even though it would be virtually identical in regards to electrical outlet placement.
        Electricians do it until it Hertz!

        Comment


          #19
          Originally posted by JFletcher View Post
          Wow I'm sorry to hear that and that she had to go through such an injury. Modern coffee pots would do the same thing, maybe they should have magnetic breakaway cords like fry-daddy's have.

          I was referring more to the number of outlets where they have to be placed, and what not. a kitchen built even 10 years ago would not be up to today's code, even though it would be virtually identical in regards to electrical outlet placement.
          I was thinking that if the coffee pot was plugged into a receptacle serving the counter top, it wouldn't have been plugged into a wall receptacle which placed the cord in reach of a toddler in a walker.
          Cheers and Stay Safe,

          Marky the Sparky

          Comment


            #20
            Originally posted by K8MHZ View Post
            I was thinking that if the coffee pot was plugged into a receptacle serving the counter top, it wouldn't have been plugged into a wall receptacle which placed the cord in reach of a toddler in a walker.
            Very true. Still wouldn't be a bad idea to have Breakaway chords on coffee pots, I know my Fry Daddy only has like an 18 inch long cord and it is a breakaway type. 190 degree water or 400 degree oil, either way I don't want to come in contact with either.

            I don't suppose it is possible to submit such proposals as appliances are outside the scope of the NEC?
            Electricians do it until it Hertz!

            Comment


              #21
              Originally posted by JFletcher View Post
              Very true. Still wouldn't be a bad idea to have Breakaway chords on coffee pots, I know my Fry Daddy only has like an 18 inch long cord and it is a breakaway type. 190 degree water or 400 degree oil, either way I don't want to come in contact with either.

              I don't suppose it is possible to submit such proposals as appliances are outside the scope of the NEC?
              Well....there are some cord attributes found in Article 422 but those are for appliances that are permitted to be cord and plug and such, to paraphrase of course.

              In your case it would be better directed to the UL Standard for the actual appliance standard since you are referring to coffee pots and fry daddy type appliances which you are correct in thinking the NEC doesn't govern.
              *All code responses are based on the 2017 National Electrical Code®[NEC®]

              Comment


                #22
                I heard this 3ft peninsula/island rule change was brought forward to address "loft" style dwellings where most kitchen counter surfaces are not attached to a wall. Seems like something needs to be done to address such designs...but a rule that is one size fits all is going to cause lots of problems.

                How about a new rule just for those "loft" style kitchen designs with no wall space.

                Comment


                  #23
                  I really don't see what the problem is. Just require that receptacles be installed in the countertop. If there isn't anything already, somebody needs to manufacture a tombstone type housing suitable for that use- maybe a pop-up? And too bad if it offends some decorator's senses.

                  And if there isn't anything suitable- just because nobody makes anything like that never stopped the NEC from requiring it before.

                  -Hal

                  Comment


                    #24
                    Originally posted by hbiss View Post
                    I really don't see what the problem is. Just require that receptacles be installed in the countertop. If there isn't anything already, somebody needs to manufacture a tombstone type housing suitable for that use- maybe a pop-up? And too bad if it offends some decorator's senses.

                    And if there isn't anything suitable- just because nobody makes anything like that never stopped the NEC from requiring it before.

                    -Hal
                    IN the countertop is a terrible idea in a food prep area / kitchen. Food will get trapped in the receptacle, and cleaning around it will always be a pain. I wonder if there's a market for retractable ceiling mounted cords?


                    SceneryDriver

                    Comment


                      #25
                      Originally posted by hbiss View Post
                      I really don't see what the problem is. Just require that receptacles be installed in the countertop. If there isn't anything already, somebody needs to manufacture a tombstone type housing suitable for that use- maybe a pop-up? And too bad if it offends some decorator's senses.

                      And if there isn't anything suitable- just because nobody makes anything like that never stopped the NEC from requiring it before.

                      -Hal
                      Hubbell has a listed countertop pop up receptacle for this application. There are other pop ups that imply that they are listed for the purpose, but they are not actually listed for countertop use. The product testing requires liquid spill testing in both the retracted and extended positions for countertop pop ups.
                      Don, Illinois
                      (All code citations are 2017 unless otherwise noted)

                      Comment


                        #26
                        Hubbell makes one but these pop ups are expensive. The nicer ones are $200-300 . The direct wired ones even more..

                        The hubbel one is direct wired and IMO it would have to be to comply with art. 210.52

                        http://ecatalog.hubbell-wiring.com/p...l_WLFTS004.pdf
                        They say I shot a man named Gray and took his wife to Italy
                        She inherited a million bucks and when she died it came to me
                        I can't help it if I'm lucky

                        Comment


                          #27
                          I prefer these but they are cord and plug. I know someone makes this for direct wire but I believe it was almost $400

                          https://www.kitchenpowerpopups.com/p...hoCFq4QAvD_BwE



                          They say I shot a man named Gray and took his wife to Italy
                          She inherited a million bucks and when she died it came to me
                          I can't help it if I'm lucky

                          Comment


                            #28
                            Originally posted by don_resqcapt19 View Post
                            Hubbell has a listed countertop pop up receptacle for this application. There are other pop ups that imply that they are listed for the purpose, but they are not actually listed for countertop use. The product testing requires liquid spill testing in both the retracted and extended positions for countertop pop ups.
                            Where in the code does it state that it must be listed for spill. I assumed it did but how is one to know that it is required.
                            They say I shot a man named Gray and took his wife to Italy
                            She inherited a million bucks and when she died it came to me
                            I can't help it if I'm lucky

                            Comment


                              #29
                              Originally posted by Dennis Alwon View Post
                              Hubbell makes one but these pop ups are expensive. The nicer ones are $200-300 . The direct wired ones even more..

                              The hubbel one is direct wired and IMO it would have to be to comply with art. 210.52

                              http://ecatalog.hubbell-wiring.com/p...l_WLFTS004.pdf
                              Which part of 210.52?

                              Where in the code does it state that it must be listed for spill. I assumed it did but how is one to know that it is required.
                              It doesn't but Hubbell mentions that theirs complies with UL 498 Section 146:

                              Built and listed to be water
                              resistant to a half gallon of
                              liquid spilled on the device


                              Maybe after the CMP gets done fighting over the difference between "and" and "or" they can think about a real solution that's already out there.

                              -Hal

                              Comment


                                #30
                                Originally posted by JFletcher View Post
                                It seems every code cycle they're changing something in a kitchen.... makes me wonder how I didn't starve to death or electrocute myself growing up in a kitchen built in 1953...
                                Very well put. Every time they mess around with kitchen countertop outlet locations they get it all screwed up , and my belief is they are old fat guys who haven't messed with tools for a long long time now and don't have any business being on a code panel at all. You CMP'S listening to me? Macmikeman has spoken.
                                85deg. an Sunny today.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X