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GFCI 2020--UH OH

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    #16
    Originally posted by romex jockey View Post
    The one I use is half price:

    https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...XRPHYKF1&psc=1


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      #17
      If only we could finally adopt descending ma value designs here MBrooke....~RJ~

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        #18
        I don't have as much of an issue with the mentioned condensate pumps for HVAC equipment - if they are plugged into a 5-15 or 5-20 receptacle, I am still fairly strong believer in GFCI requirements we have had the past few code cycles. The added 240 volt (150 volt to ground) single as well as three phase requirements I think are pushing it though. How many shock incidents really happen in those applications? Those situations usually don't involve appliance cords or extension cords with missing EGC pins and IMO are pretty safe in comparison to the 5-15 and 5-20 cord caps that regularly one can find with missing EGC pins. That missing EGC pin was sort of the main driving force for GFCI expansion requirements ~30 years ago and made much more sense than the changes today.

        Keep in mind a lot of the devices that will be used to comply with some of the changes are made by the same manufacturers that pushed to get AFCI requirements in the code and to expand them.

        It is all about $$ and using safety name as a tool to get it.
        I live for today, I'm just a day behind.

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          #19
          Pardon if this was mentioned already. Take a look at 210.8(F). This would require the typical condensing unit in a dwelling to have GFCI.

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            #20
            Originally posted by 480sparky View Post
            All the FA and SD circuits I've installed don't need receptacles... they're hard-wired.
            They are probably talking about residential burg systems, which usually are powered from a wallwart.

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              #21
              Originally posted by texie View Post
              Pardon if this was mentioned already. Take a look at 210.8(F). This would require the typical condensing unit in a dwelling to have GFCI.
              First I ever heard of it, but reading what it says, yes. It doesn't mention receptacles, which might make more sense, it just says "outlets" along with outdoors, 150 volts to ground or less and 50 amps or less. Pretty much covers everything you might commonly find outdoors at a dwelling other than some 5 ton heat pumps/AC's might call for a 60 amp breaker.

              This is stupid for anything hard wired IMO, if there is a receptacle involved I still don't know that darn near everything should be included, but makes a little more sense than hard wired items.
              I live for today, I'm just a day behind.

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                #22
                Originally posted by romex jockey View Post
                If only we could finally adopt descending ma value designs here MBrooke....~RJ~
                Beats having a panel full of these:





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                  #23
                  Originally posted by kwired View Post

                  First I ever heard of it, but reading what it says, yes. It doesn't mention receptacles, which might make more sense, it just says "outlets" along with outdoors, 150 volts to ground or less and 50 amps or less. Pretty much covers everything you might commonly find outdoors at a dwelling other than some 5 ton heat pumps/AC's might call for a 60 amp breaker.

                  This is stupid for anything hard wired IMO, if there is a receptacle involved I still don't know that darn near everything should be included, but makes a little more sense than hard wired items.
                  This might shed light:


                  The rationale for change

                  One downfall of the electrical business is that it's more reactive than proactive, with accidents often the catalyst for change. Numerous incidents inspired this code change, including an accident involving a 12-year-old boy who jumped over a fence and touched an AC condenser unit with an electrical fault. The outer metal housing was electrified and the child was fatally electrocuted immediately upon coming in contact with the condenser and fence simultaneously.

                  The rationale for change

                  NEC 2017 language only accounts for 15- and 20-amp receptacle outlets for dwelling units. During 2020 code review meetings, panel members agreed that hazards always exist; if 15- and 20-amp receptacle outlets present a hazard, that hazard also exists on 30-amp and higher receptacle outlets. However, it was difficult to understand the likelihood of a hazardous occurrence when weighed against expanded requirements. Recent home-based electrocution accidents – a 10-year-old girl behind an energized appliance, a child in Oklahoma retrieving a pet behind a clothes dryer, a 10-year-old Houston boy playing hide and seek — helped panel members realize the need for change. In light of these tragic events, we now have a requirement that sets a higher standard across more areas of the Code, though there are some exceptions discussed later in this blog.

                  http://www.p3-inc.com/blog/entry/nec...fci-protection

                  However, a lot of hard wired electrocutions stem from people who not only disregard code but lack an understanding of basic electricity.

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                    #24
                    Are they going to have 2 pole GFCI breakers in like 25A ratings for A/C units?

                    Originally posted by mbrooke View Post
                    However, a lot of hard wired electrocutions stem from people who not only disregard code but lack an understanding of basic electricity.
                    Very true. This assumes that those installations which were improperly wired to begin with would be wired correctly with a GFCI breaker. If they were wired properly WITHOUT a GFCI breaker those accidents wouldn't have happened.

                    -Hal

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                      #25
                      Originally posted by mbrooke View Post

                      Beats having a panel full of these:





                      wow.
                      Tom
                      TBLO

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                        #26
                        pretty bus bars. why black for neutral?

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                          #27
                          Originally posted by hbiss View Post
                          Are they going to have 2 pole GFCI breakers in like 25A ratings for A/C units?



                          Very true. This assumes that those installations which were improperly wired to begin with would be wired correctly with a GFCI breaker. If they were wired properly WITHOUT a GFCI breaker those accidents wouldn't have happened.

                          -Hal
                          I agree, incidents probably never happen in first place if installed properly. Now you make a rule that same ignorant people won't follow anyway, and will get away with it anyway if there is no permit or inspection. Some of us professionals still try to meet code even in cases where permits/inspections are not required - it isn't good to get insurance claims when you didn't follow the standards.

                          And now that they finally succumbed to the fact that there is always a danger, how do you select where to add requirements vs just saying everything needs the protection?

                          GFCI is ok, but a little too sensitive to natural leakages and causes a lot of problems with things that are working fine. Problem is if there is no EGC GFPE still leaves one kind of vulnerable if some appliance frame is energized with no current leakage. This leaves me acknowledging that GFCI is the best thing we have for cord and plug connected items, in particular 5-15 and 5-20 receptacle applications where the EGC seems to be commonly missing. Everything else I still think more emphasis on having good EGC needs to be taken.

                          Maybe they should put some sort of EGC monitoring on appliances that will disable them when there is no EGC detected. Then you will kind of have to enforce upgrading older circuits with no EGC in order for the new appliance to even work. That said people will still bootleg from neutral in some instances.
                          I live for today, I'm just a day behind.

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                            #28
                            Originally posted by ptonsparky View Post

                            wow.
                            Give it a few more code cycles and commercial/industrial panels in the US will probably look like this but with dual function AFCI/GFCI.

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                              #29
                              Originally posted by winnie View Post
                              pretty bus bars. why black for neutral?
                              Old British wiring colors. I don't blame those who refuse to relinquish them. Brown/Black/Grey/Blue looks indistinguishable a few years after installation.

                              Comment


                                #30
                                Originally posted by hbiss View Post
                                Are they going to have 2 pole GFCI breakers in like 25A ratings for A/C units?



                                Very true. This assumes that those installations which were improperly wired to begin with would be wired correctly with a GFCI breaker. If they were wired properly WITHOUT a GFCI breaker those accidents wouldn't have happened.

                                -Hal


                                Exactly. If idiots can screw up an EGC they can screw up a GFCI. Its just punishing those doing safe installations.

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