City light pole on lake ice?

[jmsokol]

I'm the moderator of the AC Power and Grounding Forum at ProSoundWeb.com. I just received an inquiry from a sound contractor about a live sound show he's supposed to do tomorrow on a frozen lake. The city has proposed that they'll install a lighting pole out on the ice (over the water) to provide power for a heated tent along with lighting and sound power. See below. At first blush this seems like it should be a clear code violation (as well as just plain crazy). But can you direct me to any specific code prohibiting lighting poles in crazy locations like this? What do you guys think, or am I over-reacting?

Thanks... Mike Sokol

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So I have been informed that tomorrow's show is not in the venue but out in a tent "with heat" on the frozen lake
I ask where are we getting power from and I am told the City is putting a light pole out on the ice?? I do have a 6 circuit GFI distro. But... How are they going to ground the pole if its on the water? I'm not afraid to tell them its not happening so let me know if this is just a bad Idea.

A sparky has been requested to tie in our 6ga SOOW single phase cable to what I'm not sure yet.

All I can say is the first sign of danger I'm going home. I have better things to do then lose my business
over some ones goofy ideas.

=============================

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I would not be concerned too much about a ground rod. Not sure how you will support the pole but hey if you can do it I don't see a problem.

 

[GoldDigger]

If there is a good (to be defined later) grounding conductor in the feed separate from the neutral, then there may not be a need for a separate earth connection close to the site.
And a GFCI does not require the presence of a ground connection anywhere to do its designed function.
I would worry more about other aspects of the installation than the 'ground".
Now, if they intend to run "high" voltage out to the pole and install a transformer, there is a lot more that could go wrong!

Tapatalk!

 

[jim dungar]

How would you ground this pole if it was mounted on a barge out on the water, what if it was mounted on a semi-trailer in a snow covered field?

How thick is the ice? In this area, we have some ice that is more than 2' deep, making it relatively easy to mount poles.

 

[jmsokol]

If there is a good (to be defined later) grounding conductor in the feed separate from the neutral, then there may not be a need for a separate earth connection close to the site.
And a GFCI does not require the presence of a ground connection anywhere to do its designed function.
I would worry more about other aspects of the installation than the 'ground".
Now, if they intend to run "high" voltage out to the pole and install a transformer, there is a lot more that could go wrong!

Tapatalk!

I'm not worried so much about grounding as I am about live conductors in the water which would create a gradient field. But if the ice is 3-feet thick, than maybe it's safe. I'm really concerned about code compliance. Is this a code violation or not? Have any of you seen this sort of light pole installation like over lake ice?

 

[jxofaltrds]

I'm trying to think of the supply as in an outdoor park.

Now the site may need to follow:

682.15 Ground-Fault Circuit-Interrupter (GFCI) Protection.
Fifteen- and 20-ampere single-phase, 125-volt
through 250-volt receptacles installed outdoors and in or on
floating buildings or structures within the electrical datum
plane area that are used for storage, maintenance, or repair
where portable electric hand tools, electrical diagnostic
equipment, or portable lighting equipment are to be used
shall be provided with GFCI protection. The GFCI protection
device shall be located not less than 300 mm (12 in.)
above the established electrical datum plane.

 

[K8MHZ]

I'm not worried so much about grounding as I am about live conductors in the water which would create a gradient field. But if the ice is 3-feet thick, than maybe it's safe. I'm really concerned about code compliance. Is this a code violation or not? Have any of you seen this sort of light pole installation like over lake ice?

I would be worried about the pole falling over. I don't care how deep the ice is. I grew up playing on a frozen lake. The ice MOVES as it contracts and expands with the changes in temperature. Cracks will appear out of nowhere as the 'plates' of the ice shift.

I would think the installation of a power pole would fall under the rules of the NESC. I wonder what they have to say about putting a pole in the ice.

 

[mgookin]

I'm the moderator of the AC Power and Grounding Forum at ProSoundWeb.com. I just received an inquiry from a sound contractor about a live sound show he's supposed to do tomorrow on a frozen lake. The city has proposed that they'll install a lighting pole out on the ice (over the water) to provide power for a heated tent along with lighting and sound power. See below. At first blush this seems like it should be a clear code violation (as well as just plain crazy). But can you direct me to any specific code prohibiting lighting poles in crazy locations like this? What do you guys think, or am I over-reacting?

Thanks... Mike Sokol

===============================
So I have been informed that tomorrow's show is not in the venue but out in a tent "with heat" on the frozen lake
I ask where are we getting power from and I am told the City is putting a light pole out on the ice?? I do have a 6 circuit GFI distro. But... How are they going to ground the pole if its on the water? I'm not afraid to tell them its not happening so let me know if this is just a bad Idea.

A sparky has been requested to tie in our 6ga SOOW single phase cable to what I'm not sure yet.

All I can say is the first sign of danger I'm going home. I have better things to do then lose my business
over some ones goofy ideas.

=============================

If I'm reading that correctly, the sound guy is not the electrician. The city has their own electrician who will provide power to the site. His job is to connect to the power supply and provide sound. He can evaluate the situation like any other and decide if he wants to do the job, risk damage to his equipment, etc. Maybe he wants to meet a city electric inspector out on site to review protocol for compliance and safety purposes.

I would be worried about the pole falling over. I don't care how deep the ice is. I grew up playing on a frozen lake. The ice MOVES as it contracts and expands with the changes in temperature. Cracks will appear out of nowhere as the 'plates' of the ice shift.

I would think the installation of a power pole would fall under the rules of the NESC. I wonder what they have to say about putting a pole in the ice.

Docks do suffer damage but not in one evening in most cases. It sounds like this pole will be there for one day or so.

 

[jmsokol]

Thanks for all your feedback. I've forwarded this info to the OP on my forum, and he's going to get a look at the frozen site tomorrow morning. If it looks OK and was indeed installed by a City electrician and checked by a City inspector, then he'll run with it. He's promised to send pictures which I'll forward to this forum for grins.

 

[tom baker]

Pole does not need to be grounded, it needs to be bonded with an EGC back to the source.
I would suggest a fiber glass pole, lighter weight. Have some horiz pins at the bottom. bore a hole, hang the pole in the hole with supports, let the hole freeze over.
Not sure how you would get it out.
Or just freeze the pole bottom in a barrel.

 

[zbang]

For all that, it sounds like a small generator would be much easier.

 

[Fulthrotl]

Pole does not need to be grounded, it needs to be bonded with an EGC back to the source.
I would suggest a fiber glass pole, lighter weight. Have some horiz pins at the bottom. bore a hole, hang the pole in the hole with supports, let the hole freeze over.
Not sure how you would get it out.
Or just freeze the pole bottom in a barrel.

freeze in place, wait three months, tie a rope onto it so you can find it after it self removes.
i was just thinking two crossed pieces of strut would get it done well, and don't forget to bond
to cold water! get a torch and melt some ice, to get cold water.

'n once you get 500 people out on warm ice, lets's all rock to this and test the ice....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGaOlfmX8rQ