Spray Parks

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hart01

Member
Location
Mayetta, Kansas
Spray Parks are a very big upcoming attraction. They have many features and includes LED lighted nozzles. I just backed out of wiring one, because I could not get the mayor and the construction manager on board with clearances per Art 110.26 We have been arguing over compliance with the NEC. In the first meeting with the mayor, I walked him the potential of stray voltage. This system is manufactured by Rain Deck. It is powered by two 2 hp and one 3 hp electric motors. My line of thinking is electric motors operating and mist water is an avenue for stray voltage. Preventing stray voltage in spray parks is the focus of my attention. Today I spoke with the Planning Director of Overland Park Kansas because their safety committee shut the park down. They had requested additional measures to be taken. The measure they used an additional bonding loop out into the pad. The focus was the LED lighted water nozzles. The LEDs are low voltage. Water flow is controlled by solenoids and an ECM module. After the correction was made and have reopened and open back up this season. We know that compliance with the NEC code will reduce the possibility of stray voltage. As you can see stray voltage can arise in many locations. Anybody any ideas or success stories on this to add to the thread.
 

JFletcher

Senior Member
Location
Williamsburg, VA
Welcome to The Forum.

I have never wired anything like this however I would check with electricians who have wired places like Water Country USA, which has a huge wave pool, the waves which are generated by several hundred horsepower submersible Motors, places like Epcot Center, which have water features, and so on.

I would read all of article 680 in the 2017 NEC to see what section or sections are applicable to your installation. if what you were installing is beyond that, I would definitely check with the AHJ to see what they permit. If this is something entirely new, the NEC may have not considered it. You may be an Uncharted Territory. If so better to go overboard with safety features and be safe than sorry.
 

JFletcher

Senior Member
Location
Williamsburg, VA
I thought about this some more, and the two examples I listed, Water Country USA and Epcot Center, are probably not good ones, seeing that they were wired 30 plus years ago
 

ActionDave

Chief Moderator
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Location
Durango, CO, 10 h 20 min from the winged horses.
Occupation
Licensed Electrician
Spray Parks are a very big upcoming attraction. They have many features and includes LED lighted nozzles. I just backed out of wiring one, because I could not get the mayor and the construction manager on board with clearances per Art 110.26 We have been arguing over compliance with the NEC. In the first meeting with the mayor, I walked him the potential of stray voltage. This system is manufactured by Rain Deck. It is powered by two 2 hp and one 3 hp electric motors. My line of thinking is electric motors operating and mist water is an avenue for stray voltage. Preventing stray voltage in spray parks is the focus of my attention......

Electric motors keep all their electrons to themselves, they don't share any with the water in the pump. Stray voltage is a byproduct of our power grid and has nothing to do with the wiring inside the park.
 

ghostbuster

Senior Member
Electric motors keep all their electrons to themselves, they don't share any with the water in the pump. Stray voltage is a byproduct of our power grid and has nothing to do with the wiring inside the park.


Respectfully--you are very very wrong on so many levels I do not know where to begin.. (On remote occasions it is the utility but very seldom maybe 95%/5%)

We have been involved in stray voltage investigations for over 30 years.

Many dairy farmer"s cows are extremely sensitive to this.Our most recent investigation found lights,motors ,submersible electric waterbowl heaters and incorectly wired circuits (within the barn--not the utility) causing this stray voltage in the dairy barn.
 

ActionDave

Chief Moderator
Staff member
Location
Durango, CO, 10 h 20 min from the winged horses.
Occupation
Licensed Electrician
Respectfully--you are very very wrong on so many levels I do not know where to begin.. (On remote occasions it is the utility but very seldom maybe 95%/5%)

We have been involved in stray voltage investigations for over 30 years.

Many dairy farmer"s cows are extremely sensitive to this.Our most recent investigation found lights,motors ,submersible electric waterbowl heaters and incorectly wired circuits (within the barn--not the utility) causing this stray voltage in the dairy barn.
Respectfully, I don't work on large dairy farms but I do work on a lot of hay farms, I have no doubt that there are gobs of wiring errors, intentional and unintentional, faulty equipment being kept in service, some down right hazards, and a whole lot of just plain ugly wiring on any farm. I would not call any of the problems that arise from this a stray voltage problem. I would call it a problem with the premises wiring, a ground fault problem, a "Your lucky you made it this long without killing somebody problem", certainly not a stray voltage problem.

This is what the OP said.

This system is manufactured by Rain Deck. It is powered by two 2 hp and one 3 hp electric motors. My line of thinking is electric motors operating and mist water is an avenue for stray voltage. Preventing stray voltage in spray parks is the focus of my attention......

There is no way a pump can cause stray voltage. The voltage in the motor stays in the motor.
 

GoldDigger

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Staff member
Location
Placerville, CA, USA
Occupation
Retired PV System Designer
Respectfully, I don't work on large dairy farms but I do work on a lot of hay farms, I have no doubt that there are gobs of wiring errors, intentional and unintentional, faulty equipment being kept in service, some down right hazards, and a whole lot of just plain ugly wiring on any farm. I would not call any of the problems that arise from this a stray voltage problem. I would call it a problem with the premises wiring, a ground fault problem, a "Your lucky you made it this long without killing somebody problem", certainly not a stray voltage problem.

This is what the OP said.



There is no way a pump can cause stray voltage. The voltage in the motor stays in the motor.
Respectfully, leakage current from a defective motor winding to the motor case can travel from motor case to pump casing and from there to the pipes and the water contained in them.
Leakage from a non defective motor is unlikely to be dangerous, but may still be detectable.
An open frame motor exposed to water spray is more likely to develop leakage than a sealed motor.
The code for swimming pools justifiably requires pumps to be connected to the equipotential grid.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk
 

hart01

Member
Location
Mayetta, Kansas
Stray Voltage

Stray Voltage

For years I have wired boat docks, swimming pools, and spas. Never once had a stray voltage problem. This was many years ago before all the GFCI and Arc Faults. So I got to thinking what was I doing or considering while wiring these areas. There one thing that keeps sticking in my mind. Anybody ever witch a well. I have. There is science behind it. This science is physics. Moving water will or can create a magnetic field. This implies the IONs in the water are charged with electricity. Now on swimming pools, spas, and spray parks there chlorinator injectors. A Chlorinator injector also monitors the amount of chlorine in the water. Minerals/chemicals are being added to water that may make it more acceptable to a magnetic field and electrical current. Now if there is a slight leak between the pump and the electric motor there is a great possibility of electrifying the water. The thing I have noticed on some of the cities that I have talked to and the manufactures is they are grounding the nozzles that contain the LED lighting and including it into a bounding loop back to the main. They are also driving grounding rods in the rebar area and establishing a ground link.
 
This topic has attracted an unexpected level of BS for such a normally rational forum. I have just read in 15 minutes more pseudoscientific hogwash than in the last 6 months.
How many readers caught the gratuitous use of the word "physics..." always a red flag. This is why electricians are not allowed to do plumbing. Where water is concerned, they are utterly baffled. I will especially rest easy knowing that water can not be electrified by faulty pumping apparatus due to a law of nature. I've been telling people for years that grounding spas was a waste of time.

On a more serious note, among those reading this, there must be a lot of exposure to magnetic fields. Can anyone here report being able to detect magnetic fields by their own natural senses, from a distance, without devices? There seems to be evidence of a magnetic sense, but maybe this is just trying too hard to explain some people's exceptional situational awareness.

Also I was not aware that magnetic fields were the accepted explanation for dowsing. I can not prove that dowsing is impossible, I have seen a city worker here in the Milwaukee area dowsing.
He got out of a city utility truck, wearing an orange vest over a city jumpsuit, and proceeded down the road holding out two ell-shaped rods like 1/4-inch Allen wrenches, one in each hand, with the long legs pointing forward. No electronics or anything. I wish I could have stopped and talked to him but I was taking the kids to school.

I would be OK with a water spray in which the last conductive object to touch the water (ideally the nozzle) was bonded to a nearby rod.
 
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