Home Improvement Store Wisdom

[paac]

I overheard a conversation at a local mega home improvement store today that I thought was interesting.

A customer asked an employee if they would require a 15 or 20 amp breaker for their sump pump. The employee responded that a 20A would work best because, while a 15A would work, it wouldn't allow as much power to get through causing the pump to work harder and wear out quicker.

Couldn't believe my ears.

 

[charlie b]

What nonsense! Everybody knows that the smaller breaker will squeeze the current into a smaller diameter, forcing it to move faster through the wire, just like happens when you put your thumb at the end of the garden hose and squeeze the water flow, so that it goes faster and farther. Duh! :wink:

Welcome to the forum.

 

[ronmath]

Charlie,

You can't be serious :wink:, with the current moving that fast, it becomes soooo much more dangerous (such as the rapids in a river). I agree with the big box guy, slow it down, the bigger the better. Think how slow the current would be at 200 amps! You could spend the day in an inner tube soaking up the sun (using the same analogy). :grin: It would be fun to do a "Jay-walking" type of thing in these home improvement stores to see what kind of answers they come up with (and how much danger they put their customers in).

 

[paac]

After a brief conversation with the HO, it was obvious that his pump was shot. He said he saw a puff of smoke when he reset the breaker. I told the HO that once you let the smoke out, you can't get it back in so he should just buy a new pump.

In reading the previous posts however, maybe I was too quick to dismiss the "expert". Perhaps it was me who was wrong. Sometimes I get so caught up in thinking that I'm the man, that I just can't seem to think outside the box. I should have thought about the water analogy. Stupid ego!

 

[480sparky]

.........., just like happens when you put your thumb at the end of the garden hose and squeeze the water flow, so that it goes faster and farther. Duh! :wink:........

So, would that be an increase in amperage, or voltage? :wink::grin:

 

[paac]

So, would that be an increase in amperage, or voltage? :wink::grin:

Decreased volume = decreased voltage, increased pressure = increased amperage?

Wait a minute, I get it! The 15A breaker allowed too much voltage and that's what fried the pump! The decreased amperage diameter in a 20A breaker allows for smoother, cooler operation.

I feel like I'm having an Einstein moment right now. Probably the one I should have had at the store.:grin:

 

[480sparky]

Decreased volume = decreased voltage, increased pressure = increased amperage?

Wait a minute, I get it! The 15A breaker allowed too much voltage and that's what fried the pump! The decreased amperage diameter in a 20A breaker allows for smoother, cooler operation.

I feel like I'm having an Einstein moment right now. Probably the one I should have had at the store.:grin:

No, decreased volume = lower amps. Increased presssure = higher voltage.




What probably really killed the pump is it got all rusty from lack of use and eventually froze up.

 

[daleuger]

Charlie,

You can't be serious :wink:, with the current moving that fast, it becomes soooo much more dangerous (such as the rapids in a river). I agree with the big box guy, slow it down, the bigger the better. Think how slow the current would be at 200 amps! You could spend the day in an inner tube soaking up the sun (using the same analogy). :grin: It would be fun to do a "Jay-walking" type of thing in these home improvement stores to see what kind of answers they come up with (and how much danger they put their customers in).

Wouldn't make a very marketable show. Nobody but electricians would get the punch lines. Kind of like the old joke....how's a local hand like a 3 way? takes 2 travelers to get him to work! Who but an electrician would get that?

 

[charlie b]

Obviously we weren't there to hear the whole conversation between the employee and the customer. But I have to wonder why, if it is the pump that lost its smoke, the customer is asking about replacing the breaker. :-? I sincerely doubt that the customer is planning to replace the wires, so the question the employee should have asked is whether they are #12 or #14.

Actually, I have never had the "pleasure" (wrong term, I think) of stumbling across such a conversation. I don't know how I would handle it. I would probably feel an urge to step in and "educate" both the employee and the customer. But a big part of me says I should resist that urge. I can't teach either one of them enough to get the job done correctly and safely, and I am not licensed to do the work myself. So who wins, and who loses, in such cases? :-?

 

[paac]

I didn't catch the entire conversation, but most of it. Not entirely sure how it got to the point it did, but I think it was a $ thing. It sounded like he was wanting to save a couple of bucks and was asking the employee about breakers because he wanted to try that first. I agree the employee should have asked what the problem was, but he didn't. I did try to tell the HO about not using the wire as a fuse, replace the pump with a similar one, etc., etc. BTW the employee was present for almost the entire conversation. I was very polite, but I've thought of a million things that I could have said since.

As for my Einstein moment, oops. I shouldn't have left everything I had in the box before trying to think outside of it.

 

[LarryFine]

Actually, I have never had the "pleasure" (wrong term, I think) of stumbling across such a conversation. I don't know how I would handle it. I would probably feel an urge to step in and "educate" both the employee and the customer. But a big part of me says I should resist that urge. I can't teach either one of them enough to get the job done correctly and safely, and I am not licensed to do the work myself. So who wins, and who loses, in such cases? :-?

I can't help but get involved if the threat of danger is large enough. To wit:

A guy is looking over the bundles of NM cable, and I notice he has a 50/2 breaker, a 3-wire range cordset, and a 3-prong range receptacle in his cart. He compares prices, and settles on a roll of 12/2.

I had to say something, so I did, starting out innocently enough. He says he's helping a friend hook up a new range. When I mentioned the wire size, he said he knows "the bigger wire is better, but it costs too much."

I explained very carefully how he was about to help his friend have a house fire, why the wire size matters, and which wire size and type to use, including 4-wire components and a 40a breaker.

I also gave him a business card. He never called, but that's okay. I didn't do it as a sales pitch*. Licensed or not, educated or not, if someone is determined, they're going to do it themselves.

I feel like I left the situation better than I found it, and I'd do it again in a heartbeat. In fact, I often have. :smile:


* Okay, sometimes I do.

 

[LarryFine]

I did try to tell the HO about not using the wire as a fuse, replace the pump with a similar one, etc., etc.

I use the intentional-weak-link idea when explaining it to unwary people, and how eliminating that weakest part make the next-weakest link rear its ugly head, and a fire is the usual first notice.

 

[480sparky]

Wouldn't make a very marketable show. Nobody but electricians would get the punch lines. Kind of like the old joke....how's a local hand like a 3 way? takes 2 travelers to get him to work! Who but an electrician would get that?

That's right up there with, "There are 10 kinds of people in the world.... those who understand binary and those who don't".

 

[wawireguy]

Comon.. Someones gotta win those Darwin Awards!

 

[charlie b]

I feel like I left the situation better than I found it, and I'd do it again in a heartbeat. In fact, I often have.

Thank you Larry. That is exactly what I was looking for, as a philosophy to adopt in such situations.

 

[charlie b]

Comon.. Someones gotta win those Darwin Awards!

That is actually quite true. But also true is the assertion that none of us wants to know a winner personally.

 

[iaov]

I'm starting to sound like a broken record to myself, I know,I know, but it is totaly beyond me why you can't kil people with a gun or a club, but its OK with some 14/2 Romex and a fifty amp breaker!! What is realy nuts is that of the 2 big box stores we have here, one employs a Master Electrician who refuses and is not allowed to dispense advice, and the other store has people not smart enoughto get more than a 6 dollar an hour job freely dispensing wiring advice!! I think if you go to buy more than a 15 amp breaker you ought to have something that says you have even the slightest clue as to what the hell you are doing!!

 

[daleuger]

Oh man I got a good one from earlier. I went into HD looking over some tools, NOT material...lol. Anyway I noticed that they STILL sell those "Electrician's Conduit Cutters" which basically amounts to a glorified C-clamp with a cutting wheel. Who would seriously buy/use that?

 

[brian john]

I am convinced if you stood in the electrical isle of HD for one Saturday you would be taken out in a straight jacket or finally realize that electricity is a lot safer than we give it credit for otherwise a lot of homes and commercial facilities would be burnt down or DIYers in the morgue.

 

[paac]

I am convinced if you stood in the electrical isle of HD for one Saturday you would be taken out in a straight jacket or finally realize that electricity is a lot safer than we give it credit for otherwise a lot of homes and commercial facilities would be burnt down or DIYers in the morgue.

I have a friend that claims to hang out in HD when things are real slow. He just browses the aisles listening to conversations and very politely throws in his 2 cents worth when it's needed. He says that he can usually find a HO that needs professional help and is willing to pay for it. He also said, "Thank God things aren't that slow very often."