Safety or NOT!

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switchleg45

Member
Location
Ft Myers,FL
For all you claiming that the NEC's main objective is "Safety" tell me this: (and maybe some of you at lighting fixture manufacturing can chime in)
Why is a recessed light fixture somehow unsafe without the trim installed but is safe with the trim installed? And why would a phone line (hard line) be required in a residence? Regarding these questions and others I am often asking myself: What does this have to do with "Safety". I think all too often it has to do with adding to the pockets of the money grubbers. The wealthy elite care not about live and let live they want more and more and more.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
Well I can think of many recessed fixtures that I would consider a fire hazard if operated without the trims.


The phone line ........... you got me. :roll:
 

chris kennedy

Senior Member
Location
Miami Fla.
Occupation
60 yr old tool twisting electrician
For all you claiming that the NEC's main objective is "Safety" tell me this: (and maybe some of you at lighting fixture manufacturing can chime in)
Why is a recessed light fixture somehow unsafe without the trim installed but is safe with the trim installed? And why would a phone line (hard line) be required in a residence? Regarding these questions and others I am often asking myself: What does this have to do with "Safety". I think all too often it has to do with adding to the pockets of the money grubbers. The wealthy elite care not about live and let live they want more and more and more.

So how was your day?
 

220/221

Senior Member
Location
AZ
Don't forget my favorite.

Why do they allow unfused, unprotected SE cable inside houses? :D

Game, set and match.
 

ceb58

Senior Member
Location
Raeford, NC
Well I can think of many recessed fixtures that I would consider a fire hazard if operated without the trims.


The phone line ........... you got me. :roll:

I agree with the reasoning of the trims on can lights.
As far as the new code of installing at least one hard wired phone line. I was told in a code class that due to so many people going to voice over IP like Vonage it doesn't always have the correct 911 info in-case of emergency. With that said, I know of nothing that requires the HO to have that hard wired line activated. But from a code point of view we have done our job.
 

nakulak

Senior Member
when the testing lab tests the fixture for whatever tests are applicable, they are done so as an assembly. since the manufacturer's have no interest in selling the fixture without a trim (not to mention the fact that the general population does not use fixtures without the trims), what sense would it make for them to test them or list them for use without the trims ? Do you really have an application where someone wants to install a bunch of fixtures without trims ?
 

mivey

Senior Member
when the testing lab tests the fixture for whatever tests are applicable, they are done so as an assembly. since the manufacturer's have no interest in selling the fixture without a trim (not to mention the fact that the general population does not use fixtures without the trims), what sense would it make for them to test them or list them for use without the trims ? Do you really have an application where someone wants to install a bunch of fixtures without trims ?
Yeah: Pre-paint & mudding. Now if they will just quit painting & muddiing my lamps. :D
 

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
I agree that the installation of a phone line is not safety related and submitted a comment in opposition to that proposal. The rule does not make any sense in that it requires the "communications outlet" to be wired to the service provider demarcation point. If you are building a new house and do not contract for service with a communications utility there will not be a demarcation point. Also they have not defined "communications outlet", and while the intent was a "phone outlet", I think that a cable TV outlet would satisfy the code wording. About 20% of people do not have a land line phone now and that number is growing every day. There is really no good reason for a young person who has grown up with a cell phone to ever have a land line phone in his or her house.
 

pfalcon

Senior Member
Location
Indiana
For all you claiming that the NEC's main objective is "Safety" tell me this: (and maybe some of you at lighting fixture manufacturing can chime in)
Why is a recessed light fixture somehow unsafe without the trim installed but is safe with the trim installed? And why would a phone line (hard line) be required in a residence? Regarding these questions and others I am often asking myself: What does this have to do with "Safety". I think all too often it has to do with adding to the pockets of the money grubbers. The wealthy elite care not about live and let live they want more and more and more.

Safety if you include equipment safety and insurance reduction.

Nakaluk in post #9 has the answer to the light fixtures. It was tested with trim; some are dangerous without trim; therefore assemble it as listed.

Phone lines are not an issue I deal with so I don't know what code you are citing. Since most primary homes will desire a land line with the first or second HO the reason follows why outlets are installed. Installing such a common item after the fact is hugely expensive and we don't want the HO to DIY the thing. A requirement for land lines should have been a 1970s thing when usage became obvious. Not a 2008 thing when the usage is now dropping. If we didn't need the requirement over the last 40 years on the upslope then we don't need it now on the downslope of the technology.
 

K8MHZ

Senior Member
Location
Michigan. It's a beautiful peninsula, I've looked
Occupation
Electrician
I have not read the wording of the requirement for the installation of a hard line communications circuit.

My question would be what conductors are going to be run?

RG-6 for using CATV?

Twisted pair for conventional TX?

Cat rated cable for Ethernet?

RG-8 for 2 way radio equipment?

I don't have a 2008 book, we are still on the '05.

Could someone cite the wording for me?
 

al hildenbrand

Senior Member
Location
Minnesota
Occupation
Electrical Contractor, Electrical Consultant, Electrical Engineer
Could someone cite the wording for me?
It's my pleasure.
2008 NEC
800.156 Dwelling Unit Communications Outlet.
For new construction, a minimum of one communications outlet shall be installed within the dwelling and cabled to the service provider demarcation point.
Also, there are definitions that give some insight at the beginning of Chapter 8:
800.2 Definitions.
Communications Circuit. The circuit that extends voice, audio, video, data, interactive services, telegraph (except radio), outside wiring for fire alarm and burglar alarm from the communications utility to the customer's communications equipment up to and including terminal equipment such as a telephone, fax machine, or answering machine.
As noted earlier in this thread, communications "outlet" is not defined in the 2008 NEC.
 

K8MHZ

Senior Member
Location
Michigan. It's a beautiful peninsula, I've looked
Occupation
Electrician
It's my pleasure. Also, there are definitions that give some insight at the beginning of Chapter 8: As noted earlier in this thread, communications "outlet" is not defined in the 2008 NEC.

Thanks.

As previously questioned what if there is no "service provider demarcation point"?

Example, only a wireless (satellite or WiFi) service for the structure. All services come from that point. What would be considered the service provider demarcation point?

As for the definition:

The circuit that extends voice, audio, video, data, interactive services, telegraph (except radio), outside wiring for fire alarm and burglar alarm from the communications utility to the customer's communications equipment up to and including terminal equipment such as a telephone, fax machine, or answering machine.

Shouldn't there be another 'or' in there somewhere? Like where I highlighted the 'and'.

Probably what will happen is that EC's will just put in one telephone jack and use regular phone cable to run to a loop spooled to where the EC's best guess for the phone drop to come in would be.
 

al hildenbrand

Senior Member
Location
Minnesota
Occupation
Electrical Contractor, Electrical Consultant, Electrical Engineer
It's interesting that "telegraph (except radio)" is included.
I liked that as well.

The closest I've gotten to a telegraph line was in the home of a retired Western Union keyer. He still had an energized key beside his easy chair, about 18 years ago. The line didn't leave the house anymore, but it sure did sound nice.
 
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