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    Working Hot

    I have encountered this issue on other threads recently ("me vs. customer", "split bolt connectors" etc.) and also in my own job.

    It's almost like the elephant in the room. Obviously, and as we were all taught, standard practice is to deenergize any circuit you must work on.

    However, in the real world in some cases, there are situations where hot work must be done. In my city (NY), I can't shut down 50 existing apartments to tap into the service bus. It is work approached with the utmost seriousness and caution and precautions-- by experienced people-- nonetheless dangerous.

    A poster from L.A. (sorry I forget name) said in one of these threads that
    he had no choice but to do it also. Some people from less populated areas said that they request a shutdown from the POCO and the homewner must wait if they have to. That's almost never done around here. Maybe it should be.

    I realize this is a controversial topic. What do others think ?

    #2
    Some times it is neccessary to work it hot.

    Comment


      #3
      Originally posted by flashlight View Post
      ...
      However, in the real world in some cases, there are situations where hot work must be done. In my city (NY), I can't shut down 50 existing apartments to tap into the service bus. It is work approached with the utmost seriousness and caution and precautions-- by experienced people-- nonetheless dangerous.
      While hot work is often "required" it is almost never permitted by the OSHA rules.
      Don, Illinois
      (All code citations are 2017 unless otherwise noted)

      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by flashlight View Post
        ....However, in the real world in some cases, there are situations where hot work must be done. In my city (NY), I can't shut down 50 existing apartments to tap into the service bus.....
        If a POCO problem or storm takes the power out to the 50 apartments for a brief period of time is it a tragedy ? Folks can live without power and do own UPS systems for such events. The consequences (physical & liability) from an error while tapping a service buss can not outweigh the inconvenience of a scheduled outage.
        (I too have done it, but, with age and a few visuals of what can happen, I saw the light.)
        At my age, I'm accustomed to restaurants asking me to pay in advance, but now my bank has started sending me their calendar one month at a time.

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by don_resqcapt19 View Post
          While hot work is often "required" it is almost never permitted by the OSHA rules.
          Can't put it much better than that.

          Any company that allows there employees to work hot is very likely violation OSHA standards and putting themselves at great exposure to fines and more.

          Comment


            #6
            In the past I have worked alot of things "hot" because something cannot possibly be shut down, as I get older I have learned to be less concerned with some workers inconvenience and more concerned with my safety.
            [COLOR="Red"]THIS SPACE FOR RENT[/COLOR]

            Comment


              #7
              I submitted a proposal, 9-136, to require a line side barrier for service equipment so that you could work on the panel without working on or near energized equipment, but it was rejected. My proposal was based on the Canadian Electrical Code where this barrier is already required. Without the proposed barrier there is no legal way to work in the service panel unless you have the utility disconnect the power to the service.
              Don, Illinois
              (All code citations are 2017 unless otherwise noted)

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by don_resqcapt19 View Post
                I submitted a proposal, 9-136, to require a line side barrier for service equipment so that you could work on the panel without working on or near energized equipment, but it was rejected. My proposal was based on the Canadian Electrical Code where this barrier is already required. Without the proposed barrier there is no legal way to work in the service panel unless you have the utility disconnect the power to the service.
                That's very interesting.... never thought about it
                At my age, I'm accustomed to restaurants asking me to pay in advance, but now my bank has started sending me their calendar one month at a time.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by iwire View Post
                  Can't put it much better than that.

                  Any company that allows there employees to work hot is very likely violation OSHA standards and putting themselves at great exposure to fines and more.
                  I assume that "More" part is personal safety. Who cares about fines. The fines are a joke, and just a slap on the wrist after they doctors have reattached fingers or scrapped burnt skin off, and a team of injury lawyers are knocking on your door. No matter what your boss says, no matter what osha says, you have to know the risks and how to protect yourself.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by StephenSDH View Post
                    I assume that "More" part is personal safety. Who cares about fines. The fines are a joke, and just a slap on the wrist after they doctors have reattached fingers or scrapped burnt skin off, and a team of injury lawyers are knocking on your door. No matter what your boss says, no matter what osha says, you have to know the risks and how to protect yourself.
                    Hang on, every time I bring up the safety aspect I get slammed for being too 'preachy'.

                    The fines may be a joke but the total cost to a company after a true accident is very high and it is only the fear of those costs that will change how middle managers make decisions about what can and cannot be shut down.

                    If you can show them the costs to shut down are more than the costs not to shut down you have a chance.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by augie47 View Post
                      If a POCO problem or storm takes the power out to the 50 apartments for a brief period of time is it a tragedy ? Folks can live without power and do own UPS systems for such events. The consequences (physical & liability) from an error while tapping a service buss can not outweigh the inconvenience of a scheduled outage.)
                      Great point-- biggest problem is the bureaucracy.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by Buck Parrish View Post
                        Some times it is neccessary to work it hot.
                        Maybe, but nobody says it has to be me who does it.

                        If I say "It must be deenergized for me to do it," and they say "If you won't do it hot, I'll find someone who will," I say let 'em.

                        I'm not here to make that kind of impression on people.
                        Master Electrician
                        Electrical Contractor
                        Richmond, VA

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by iwire View Post
                          Can't put it much better than that.

                          Any company that allows there employees to work hot is very likely violation OSHA standards and putting themselves at great exposure to fines and more.
                          Then how do utility companies get away with it ?

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by augie47 View Post
                            If a POCO problem or storm takes the power out to the 50 apartments for a brief period of time is it a tragedy ? Folks can live without power and do own UPS systems for such events. The consequences (physical & liability) from an error while tapping a service buss can not outweigh the inconvenience of a scheduled outage.
                            (I too have done it, but, with age and a few visuals of what can happen, I saw the light.)
                            I completely agree. Unscheduled power outages happen and tenants/customers live with it. So how can it be such a big deal if you do schedule it?

                            Tell the owner/landlord/customer to make up 50 flyers about the upcoming power outage and drop them in the tenants mailboxes. Problem solved. You schedule it during the day when everyone is at work and you might have what, maybe 50% or less of the tenants home? Do you really think it's worth risking your life for the hour or two or whatever you need to shut the power off just for those few people?

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by iwire View Post
                              Hang on, every time I bring up the safety aspect I get slammed for being too 'preachy'.
                              I'm not busting on you. I just wanted to take a stab at what the "more" stood for.:grin:

                              Comment

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