Working Hot

[jwjrw]

Try watching a few of the videos on this site:

http://www.westexinc.com/flash_video/westex.html

They'll make you think twice about the FR clothing.

Mark

Actually I've seen them. It isnt smart even if done often.I have no excuse other than "everybody else is doing it" which aint a reason as all our parents told us.

 

[busman]

Actually I've seen them. It isnt smart even if done often.I have no excuse other than "everybody else is doing it" which aint a reason as all our parents told us.

I really wasn't looking for an excuse. I'm one of the minority on this forum that believes that the fact that we have electricity in this country means that someone has to take some level of risk. And despite what's in 70E, that just pawns the risk off on linemen. Even if you ask for a shutdown to do your work, there is no magic button for lineman that turns off the power. They do it with hotsticks and rubber gloves and insulated bucket trucks, but it's still hot work.

I only thought that those videos might spur you to invest in some FR clothing. It's quite a dramatic difference.

Hoping we can all be safe, no matter what we choose to do.

Mark

 

[jwjrw]

I really wasn't looking for an excuse. I'm one of the minority on this forum that believes that the fact that we have electricity in this country means that someone has to take some level of risk. And despite what's in 70E, that just pawns the risk off on linemen. Even if you ask for a shutdown to do your work, there is no magic button for lineman that turns off the power. They do it with hotsticks and rubber gloves and insulated bucket trucks, but it's still hot work.

I only thought that those videos might spur you to invest in some FR clothing. It's quite a dramatic difference.

Hoping we can all be safe, no matter what we choose to do.

Mark

Thanks for the advice and safe wishes. I agree its a dangerous business we are in and you have to accept you can get killed.

 

[weressl]

Different rules, OSHA rules are very different for line people then for all others.

The death (or should I say 'killed on the job') rate is also much higher for line people than electricians.

..and just like any other statistics is false and misleading. The above data is a comparison of workhours, but it is not LIVE workhours. Line electrician do a significantly greater amount of live work than others. The incident and fatality rate is MINISCULE when compared to their total hours of live work with any other groups, or collective all groups live workhours.

Since practice makes perfect - or at least proficiency - it makes sense.

 

[richxtlc]

..... Even if you ask for a shutdown to do your work, there is no magic button for lineman that turns off the power. They do it with hotsticks and rubber gloves and insulated bucket trucks, but it's still hot work.
Linemen receive specialized training and use specialized equipment to keep them safe while working hot. They wear voltage rated PPE work from insulated bucket trucks and practice their trade on a daily basis. A lineman would never go up without his PPE. He protects the line where he might come in contact with insulated hoses and mats. They rarely take chances, the consequences are too great for severe injury or death. Also, if the work can be done de-energized, it will be de-energized, no one will say, I've done this live before you don't have to de-energize it.

 

[jwjrw]

..... Even if you ask for a shutdown to do your work, there is no magic button for lineman that turns off the power. They do it with hotsticks and rubber gloves and insulated bucket trucks, but it's still hot work.
Linemen receive specialized training and use specialized equipment to keep them safe while working hot. They wear voltage rated PPE work from insulated bucket trucks and practice their trade on a daily basis. A lineman would never go up without his PPE. He protects the line where he might come in contact with insulated hoses and mats. They rarely take chances, the consequences are too great for severe injury or death. Also, if the work can be done de-energized, it will be de-energized, no one will say, I've done this live before you don't have to de-energize it.

I have never seen a lineman wear more than gloves and rubber booties here. Even up in the bucket. Maybe they are wearing fire resistant clothing but I dont think so.

 

[iwire]

..and just like any other statistics is false and misleading. The above data is a comparison of workhours, but it is not LIVE workhours. Line electrician do a significantly greater amount of live work than others. The incident and fatality rate is MINISCULE when compared to their total hours of live work with any other groups, or collective all groups live workhours.

Since practice makes perfect - or at least proficiency - it makes sense.

Put your money where your mouth is, show us how you came to your conclusions. Or was is it that you just enjoy being contrary and have no facts to back up your statement?

I am suspect of any statistics, that includes the one I posted and it certainly includes your own best guess.

 

[weressl]

Put your money where your mouth is, show us how you came to your conclusions. Or was is it that you just enjoy being contrary and have no facts to back up your statement?

I am suspect of any statistics, that includes the one I posted and it certainly includes your own best guess.

It was response to a question at an IEEE Annual Safety Conference (2006?) after the presentation of the paper containing the data you presented. I do not know if it was recorded, or published anywhere. The statement was made by Dr. Cap... the lady who virtually singlehandedly championed the current approach to arc-flash.

 

[zog]

..and just like any other statistics is false and misleading. The above data is a comparison of workhours, but it is not LIVE workhours. Line electrician do a significantly greater amount of live work than others. The incident and fatality rate is MINISCULE when compared to their total hours of live work with any other groups, or collective all groups live workhours.

Since practice makes perfect - or at least proficiency - it makes sense.

I don't have the data to support this ether but in my experience I would have to agree with this. The amount of live work training linemen get is amazing and they take every precaution possible. So yes the fatalities per hour worked on live circuits for an electrician would be much higher than that for linemen, I have also seen this at IEEE and EPRI presentations but can't find the data, will keep looking.

 

[busman]

The amount of live work training linemen get is amazing and they take every precaution possible..

I'd have to respectfully disagree with you on this one. Many linemen routinely work secondary voltages using just leather gloves or even barehanded. I have NEVER seen a lineman use ANY PPE to pull a residential meter. At least when I pull a meter, I use FR clothing, insulated gloves, arc flash shield, ear plugs and a meter pulling device. Who's being safer?

Mark

 

[busman]

Linemen receive specialized training and use specialized equipment to keep them safe while working hot. They wear voltage rated PPE work from insulated bucket trucks and practice their trade on a daily basis. A lineman would never go up without his PPE. He protects the line where he might come in contact with insulated hoses and mats. They rarely take chances, the consequences are too great for severe injury or death. Also, if the work can be done de-energized, it will be de-energized, no one will say, I've done this live before you don't have to de-energize it.

Please see my other post. I'm sure others will chime in about how "careful" they've seen the linemen be.

Mark

 

[zog]

I'd have to respectfully disagree with you on this one. Many linemen routinely work secondary voltages using just leather gloves or even barehanded. I have NEVER seen a lineman use ANY PPE to pull a residential meter. At least when I pull a meter, I use FR clothing, insulated gloves, arc flash shield, ear plugs and a meter pulling device. Who's being safer?

Mark

I was talking about line work, I have seen the same thing pulling meters, working in padmounts, etc...If you include those guys, which are a different group than the primary guys, I would agree with you. But that will be changing with the new arc flash requirements from the NESC.

 

[mivey]

It was response to a question at an IEEE Annual Safety Conference (2006?) after the presentation of the paper containing the data you presented. I do not know if it was recorded, or published anywhere. The statement was made by Dr. Cap... the lady who virtually singlehandedly championed the current approach to arc-flash.

So how much did you win?

 

[weressl]

I was talking about line work, I have seen the same thing pulling meters, working in padmounts, etc...If you include those guys, which are a different group than the primary guys, I would agree with you. But that will be changing with the new arc flash requirements from the NESC.

Hmmm... I thought that on the residential level the volatge and kVA of the transformer size puts most if not all of these below the arc-flash hazard potential. Perhapos that is WHY they do not wear arc flash PPE?

 

[weressl]

So how much did you win?

.....ain't gonna hold my breath.

 

[weressl]

Maybe, but nobody says it has to be me who does it.

If I say "It must be deenergized for me to do it," and they say "If you won't do it hot, I'll find someone who will," I say let 'em.

I'm not here to make that kind of impression on people.

Exactly.

Not all soldiers in the army/navy/marines do perform bomb disposals, only a specialized, trained group. However all combat soldiers are trained to look for and recognize boobietraps and some elementary education of how to avoid or disarm them.

 

[busman]

I was talking about line work, I have seen the same thing pulling meters, working in padmounts, etc...If you include those guys, which are a different group than the primary guys, I would agree with you. But that will be changing with the new arc flash requirements from the NESC.

Around here they are the same guys. I'm guessing that when you work 19.2 kV a lot of the time, 120, 208, 240 doesn't seem like much, but we all know it will leave you just as dead. Linemen are just starting to take arc flash seriously, but if there is a more stubborn group of people (in a good way) than linemen, I've never met them. It's a trait that's almost required to do what they do.

Mark

 

[zog]

Hmmm... I thought that on the residential level the volatge and kVA of the transformer size puts most if not all of these below the arc-flash hazard potential. Perhapos that is WHY they do not wear arc flash PPE?

Saw a huy the other day in a 13,200/480V 2500kVA padmount repairing a bushing live wearing no PPE besides gloves.

And....the 208v 125kVA expection is being removed from the 70E, so people might as well forget about using that expection. Even so, the expection currently says you do not need to do an analysis, you still need to wear PPE based on the tables, arc flash cannot be ignored as a hazard.

 

[sii]

I did a job in IA a few years ago that required the service drop to be moved from the house to the garage. The lineman showed up, climbed up an aluminum extension ladder and cut the triplex, letting it fall into the grass. All while wearing no PPE. Best part---> was raining and had been for several hours. The ground was soaked. I was pretty naive safety wise at the time and although I didn't know exactly what would have been the "right" way to do it, I knew enough to know that wasn't it.

 

[LarryFine]

I'm guessing that when you work 19.2 kV a lot of the time, 120, 208, 240 doesn't seem like much, but we all know it will leave you just as dead.

But, lower voltage means higher current!