Electrical Panel Between Two Hatches w/ Monorail?

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nemoid

Member
Here's the situation... before shop drawings were submitted (let alone approved), the contractor installed a power panel in a small building. However, they did not install the panel where designated, because there was not enough space for the panel. The room is packed, there are only two locations to install panels, one was our designated location which doesn't work anymore, and two is where the contractor installed it.

However, the location they installed the panel is in between two hatches (covered by steel plates) that open to the floor below (~30'). These hatches are used to install and remove large equipment (using a monorail) on the lower level. The monorail travels laterally (from right to left, on the attached picture).

As far as NEC is concerned (and my knowledge), there is enough working space and there is no violation. However, we are concerned with the panel extending past the edge of the hatch, it may get damaged by moving equipment. So my questions are:

  1. Is there an NEC violation because of the monorail travel within the working clearance of the panel?
  2. If not, is there an OSHA violation? (ie: a worker getting knocked into the hatch by the monorail?)
  3. Is there a code violation with the panel extending into the path of travel for the monorail?

Thanks

ek10cg.jpg
 

nakulak

Senior Member
It is subject to damage. How many other cabinets, control panels, and electrical equipment at this facility are also subject to damage ? Are you going to move all of them or just this one ?
 

jwjrw

Senior Member
It is subject to damage. How many other cabinets, control panels, and electrical equipment at this facility are also subject to damage ? Are you going to move all of them or just this one ?

From the picture just this one. It looks like its in the path of the monorail. All the other equipment looks like it is only in walkways.
 

nemoid

Member
240.24(C) could consider this area as subject to physical damage. I would not accept it.

I think this is something that we can use. Thanks! :D

It is subject to damage. How many other cabinets, control panels, and electrical equipment at this facility are also subject to damage ? Are you going to move all of them or just this one ?

Just that one panel is what we are concerned about. There are 3 large pumps on the level below. One is directly below the monorail. And there is one directly below each of the hatches. The monorail simply pulls the pumps from below so they can be carted out of the door on the left of the drawing.

edit: jwjrw is right.
 
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petersonra

Senior Member
Location
Northern illinois
Occupation
engineer
Is there an NEC violation because of the monorail travel within the working clearance of the panel?
If the monorail can travel past the panel without hitting it, I would say no. This would be a lot like a fork lift in an aisle way. Just because the panel is in an aisle way where it might get hit by a forklift does not mean it is "subject to damage".

If not, is there an OSHA violation? (ie: a worker getting knocked into the hatch by the monorail?)
I don't see how. The monorail should be locked out during work in the area if it is a problem.

Is there a code violation with the panel extending into the path of travel for the monorail?
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If the monorail can be configured to not hit the panel I would say it is no more of an issue than the forklift situation i cited earlier. If there is no way to configure the monorail to avoid hitting the panel a positive stop might be the answer.
 
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jwjrw

Senior Member
If the monorail can travel past the panel without hitting it, I would say no. This would be a lot like a fork lift in an aisle way. Just because the panel is in an aisle way where it might get hit by a forklift does not mean it is "subject to damage".


I don't see how. The monorail should be locked out during work in the area if it is a problem.


If the monorail can be configured to not hit the panel I would say it is no more of an issue than the forklift situation i cited earlier. If there is no way to configure the monorail to avoid hitting the panel a positive stop might be the answer.



I agree to a point and that is the op said it may be damaged by things being removed from hatch. So it is subject to damage.:)
 

nemoid

Member
If the monorail can travel past the panel without hitting it, I would say no. This would be a lot like a fork lift in an aisle way. Just because the panel is in an aisle way where it might get hit by a forklift does not mean it is "subject to damage".

The concern is more when it is lifting one of the pumps. During travel, the pump may be able to sway and hit the panel.

I don't see how. The monorail should be locked out during work in the area if it is a problem.

Good point.

If the monorail can be configured to not hit the panel I would say it is no more of an issue than the forklift situation i cited earlier. If there is no way to configure the monorail to avoid hitting the panel a positive stop might be the answer.

I agree with the forklift situation. But think of it this way. The forklift has one job, and can only travel forward and back. When the forklift goes to each of it's limits -- there is no interference. However, put something that is wider than the forklift and drive it through... it might hit that panel.
 

pfalcon

Senior Member
Location
Indiana
The concern is more when it is lifting one of the pumps. During travel, the pump may be able to sway and hit the panel.

Good point.

I agree with the forklift situation. But think of it this way. The forklift has one job, and can only travel forward and back. When the forklift goes to each of it's limits -- there is no interference. However, put something that is wider than the forklift and drive it through... it might hit that panel.

I still have to go with Bob (petersonra) on this one. Forklift loads can sway and topple also. The concern you are expressing is anticipation of careless workmanship not poor design. I see no violation; only extra steps that would not be present in another situation. I believe relocating the panel is a judgement call on the competence of your company workers.
 

nemoid

Member
I still have to go with Bob (petersonra) on this one. Forklift loads can sway and topple also. The concern you are expressing is anticipation of careless workmanship not poor design. I see no violation; only extra steps that would not be present in another situation. I believe relocating the panel is a judgement call on the competence of your company workers.

That's the exact discussion that I just had with our Project team not too long ago.

Problem is, my boss has blinders on, and doesn't want the panel there. He's of the concern also that the monorail breaks down directly in front of the panel wile it's moving equipment, and for some reason they need to access the panel (which doesn't feed the monorail) at the exact same time. :roll:

But I do agree with you. I think we are being too concerned with the competency of the workers rather than logically looking at the situation.
 

jwjrw

Senior Member
That's the exact discussion that I just had with our Project team not too long ago.

Problem is, my boss has blinders on, and doesn't want the panel there. He's of the concern also that the monorail breaks down directly in front of the panel wile it's moving equipment, and for some reason they need to access the panel (which doesn't feed the monorail) at the exact same time. :roll:

But I do agree with you. I think we are being too concerned with the competency of the workers rather than logically looking at the situation.


From a safety standpoint the op stated it could get hit with what is being pulled out of the hatch due to it invading the space over the hatch. That said, subject to damage means if it COULD BE DAMAGED for example a car could go over a sidewalk so they make you stub it up in sch 80. I agree it has the working space but since big equipment being dragged so close to it I would think it wouldnt be smart to put it so close even if it is legal.
 
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