GFCI question

[mrinspect]

I am new to the home inspection business, recently I ran across a home with no GFCI's in the apropriate rooms but there was one in the panel connected to the kitchen, baths and garage. Is this ok or should they still be installed in the seperate rooms?

 

[roger]

Sounds like a house that was built under an earlier code cycle.

Regardless of that, GFCI breakers can be used in lieu of GFCI receptacles in all dwelling applications.

Roger

 

[480sparky]

GFCI requirements have grown, changed and adapted since they were first introduced in the early '70s.

Whether or not a specific installation is 'legal' today depends on the codes that were adopted when it was originally installed, as well as the updated codes if any changes had been made since then.

 

[Cavie]

I am new to the home inspection business, recently I ran across a home with no GFCI's in the apropriate rooms but there was one in the panel connected to the kitchen, baths and garage. Is this ok or should they still be installed in the seperate rooms?

There are many different GFI requirements depending on when the home was built. As a home inspector it will be your responcibily to learn when the home was built and what code year was inforce at the time of construction and read up on the code for the given year of construction. Good luck and welcome to the forum.

 

[480sparky]

Somewhere, Mike Holt has a graph showing the year and what was required to be GFCI'd at that point. It does not, however, mention required circuits such as the small appliance circuits or bath circuits.

 

[cowboyjwc]

Before inspecting a house you should always go down to the building department and pull the address file to see when the house was built and if or when any other work was done, then you inspect to the codes that were being enforced at that time.

 

[charlie b]

I ran across a home with no GFCI's in the apropriate rooms but there was one in the panel connected to the kitchen, baths and garage.

It's a good question, but one aspect of the way you worded it has me concerned.

First of all, the National Electrical Code requires that certain receptacle outlets have GFCI protection. That can be done (the expensive way) by putting a GFCI receptacle in each and every outlet box in the affected rooms. It can also be done by putting a GFCI receptacle in one outlet box, and serving one or more "normal" receptacles downstream. Finally, it can be done by placing a GFCI circuit breaker in the panel itself, and using it to feed "normal" receptacles wherever they are needed. So the answer to your specific question is that it is OK to use a breaker, and not to use devices in the various rooms.

My concern, however, is that you used the phrase "one in the panel." I infer that a single breaker is being used to supply receptacles in the kitchen and in the bathrooms and in the garage. These need to be on separate circuits, and the kitchen by itself needs two of them. So if what you meant to say is that there are two GFCI breakers serving the kitchen, and a separate GFCI breaker serving bathrooms (receptacles only!), and a separate GFCI breaker serving the garage, that would be OK. Otherwise, I would suggest writing it up in your report as an issue that needs to be evaluated by an electrician.

 

[roger]

My concern, however, is that you used the phrase "one in the panel." I infer that a single breaker is being used to supply receptacles in the kitchen and in the bathrooms and in the garage. These need to be on separate circuits, and the kitchen by itself needs two of them. So if what you meant to say is that there are two GFCI breakers serving the kitchen, and a separate GFCI breaker serving bathrooms (receptacles only!), and a separate GFCI breaker serving the garage, that would be OK. Otherwise, I would suggest writing it up in your report as an issue that needs to be evaluated by an electrician.

Charlie, in the 70's and early 80's it was common to feed all the bathrooms, garage, and outside receptacles on one GFCI circuit, this was the reason for my first sentence statement in post #2.

However, I can't ever remember putting the kitchen on this one circuit though.

Roger

 

[jxofaltrds]

I am new to the home inspection business, recently I ran across a home with no GFCI's in the apropriate rooms but there was one in the panel connected to the kitchen, baths and garage. Is this ok or should they still be installed in the seperate rooms?

Home Inspections are to report on the condition of a home (my opinion). If defects are found they should be noted. If you wish to talk about todays standards that is OK just understand what others have said, you need to know what was codified at the time of the installation.

Charlie, in the 70's and early 80's it was common to feed all the bathrooms, garage, and outside receptacles on one GFCI circuit, this was the reason for my first sentence statement in post #2.

However, I can't ever remember putting the kitchen on this one circuit though.

Roger

We still did that in the early 90's. All those on a 15 AMP circuit. Kitchens were two 20 AMP.

 

[mrinspect]

Thanks to all for your responses, electrical is a weak spot of mine and I'm still learning everyday. I haven't opened my doors yet and am currently doing practice inspections. I am very glad I found this site, I have no dought you guys will help me become a better inspector!

Thanks again,
Paul

 

[hurk27]

Thanks to all for your responses, electrical is a weak spot of mine and I'm still learning everyday. I haven't opened my doors yet and am currently doing practice inspections. I am very glad I found this site, I have no dought you guys will help me become a better inspector!

Thanks again,
Paul

Here is a link to the PDF graphic that was mentioned:

GFCI Requirement History PDF

 

[hurk27]

A note to just to add:

A local unit of government such as a building enforcement official can not require a building to be brought up to todays standards in most cases as to Constitution of the United States, and most states Constitution, protect us from these requirements.

With that said, we also must know that a company offering a service is not under this same obligation such as insurance and loan companies, they can refuse service if a building doesn't meet their minimum safety standards, so in Home Inspection it will be these requirements by these companies that should guide us, as well as looking for things that are unsafe and or didn't meet code at the time of the permitted work.

You will need to get these standards for FHA, VA, HUD and others, so you will have the info as to what you will be looking for.

Here is a small list of some of their requirements:

100 amp service minimum

No fuses in service panel


GFCI protected receptacles:
In kitchen within 6' of sink
Bathrooms
Garages accessible only, dedicated (freezer, refrigerator, garage door opener exempt)
Outside
Pools

No open splices, or other unsafe wiring.

Proper bonding and wiring of service's

proper grounding electrodes installed.

no more then one neutral wire per terminal (grounds can be if per panel label)
many breakers only allow one wire, but you must learn that some do allow two, such as Square D both QO and Home Line, you must look for the info on the breaker.

And always remember, you are only providing a "informational only" inspection, here we had some HI's who thought they carried the same weight as a building official, you don't, a building official is in fact an officer of law. our state went after them for posing as an officer of law, to get them to stop, now we have a state wide HI licenses and much of these problems went away.

There are also many sites out there that cater to HI's but remember to research what you are told, there are a lot of myths out there, and some of these come from these HI's sites.

 

[cowboyjwc]

I don't thing that building codes are mentioned in the Constitution.

 

[hurk27]

I don't thing that building codes are mentioned in the Constitution.

Nope your right, it doesn't, but it does have something to say how we can apply retro laws to make something illegal that was once legal:

Originally post by Mike Park's:
http://www.cato.org/pubs/journal/cj15n2-3-4.html

"No post-facto" laws can apply to building codes, spend some time and read about it in the link above.

 

[cowboyjwc]

Nope your right, it doesn't, but it does have something to say how we can apply retro laws to make something illegal that was once legal:

Originally post by Mike Park's:
http://www.cato.org/pubs/journal/cj15n2-3-4.html

"No post-facto" laws can apply to building codes, spend some time and read about it in the link above.

I probably know what it says and I don't even have to read it. "Buildings in existence at the time of the adoption of the building code may have their existing use or occupancy continued if the use or occupancy was legal at the time of the adoption of the building code, and provided continued use is not dangerous to life, health and safety."

With that said there are jurisdictions that have "upgrade" codes.

 

[hurk27]

I probably know what it says and I don't even have to read it. "Buildings in existence at the time of the adoption of the building code may have their existing use or occupancy continued if the use or occupancy was legal at the time of the adoption of the building code, and provided continued use is not dangerous to life, health and safety."

With that said there are jurisdictions that have "upgrade" codes.

While the document in the link above doesn't spell it out, my lawyer read it, and says he can apply it to many enforced building codes trying to be enforced in our area, like right now there are several cities in my area trying to make a home owner or building owner upgrade all there electric if they have the utilities shut off for more then 90 days, how there doing it is to have our POCO not restore power until the city has done an inspection, which is where they tell the building owner they have to meet the current code cycle, this is about to land in court, under two major violations, first is having your power off for 90 days is not and open door for inspections, and two the issue of the requiring they bring up all the electric to todays standards.

Most "upgrades" codes are not a part of enforcement by the building department, most are part of a community Covenant's of requirement to live in the community, kind of more like signing a lease to live in an apartment or condominium, in this you are voluntarily giving up your right to "no-post facto" when you sign such an agreement to live in this community.

these lines get crossed all the time when a city takes over enforcement of Covenant's and forget what is a building code and what is an agreed and signed to Covenant.

We have one town here that took over a large subdivision Covenant and started enforcing the same requirements through out the town, well at least until they were sued.

So it can be a gray area in understanding which is which, but for the most part it sometimes takes the courts to straighting it out.