1.5-18 volts at outdoor faucet

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hotblueelectric

hotblueelectric

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Dallas Texas
Went on a service call today where customer was complaining of some tingling he felt at his back yard faucet. Attached one end of my fluke to the faucet and the other lead went into the moist soil. Read 1.5 volts. Turned off all breakers voltage still there. Turned off main voltage gone. Turned on microwave in the kitchen voltage goes to 10.o volts, turned another microwave they have in the bedroom (different circuit) voltage goes to 18.0. Turned off microwaves volts back to 1.5. Plug in the vaccum at any other outlet in the house and the volts goes up to around 6.0. Checked all connections at the main panel, hots, neutrals, and grounds. A few neutrals were a little loose, also a few loose hots and grounds. Checked cold water ground at the water heater and tightened it up. Checked connections at the meter base and all connections tight. Customer said that a new water meter was installed but it is all brass. Left for the day. I asked customer to check the attic and make sure the cold water ground is complete from panel to water heater and not broken. I also asked hin to call his POCO and have them check their end. This house was built in the 80,s. The only thing is there is no ground rod or ecg. Should'nt this voltage dissapate through the cold water ground to the neutral. Main panel neutral bar is correctly bonded to the case.
:rolleyes::rolleyes:Thanks for any ideas.

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Henry
Electrical Contractor
Texas
 
Does your area require a bonding jumper around the water meter?

From your symptoms, I suspect not.

In my area we go from the house side of the house valve to the street side of the street valve. The rationale has always been that the meter can be pulled and replaced by the water department without interrupting the continuity of the GEC.

Take a jumper cable and clamp it around the water meter and see if the microwaves still create the voltage.
 
Bond Failure

Bond Failure

Henry,

A possibility that your system may be okay. Clamp test the incoming water pipe with your main panel shut down and see if a reading remains. If so, a neighbor may have the neutral bond connection anomaly feeding through your system to the source. rbj
 
Had A similar problem once.I turned off the main and went to the poco trans ground to earth and got the same voltage.
They of coarse denied everything but a lineman told me that were having trouble in that area getting a ground back to the sub station through that type of rock formation.
 
So from the information given, we know the voltage is present when the main is on. We also know that the voltage increases when the load increases. So, somewhere in the system, the path of the current which normally travels in the grounded conductor (neutral) is taking the path an alternate path, perhaps that of the egc?

I once experienced a similar incident, but inside the house where the metal romex connector (in a metal box) was set so tightly that it squeezed through the sheath and then thru the white grounded conductor. The current from the appliance was returning though both the egc and the grounded conductor. This seems to have some similarities to the issue you are experiencing.
 
Larry Fine

Henry, read each line-to-neutral voltage while experiencing the high neutral voltage.
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I dont understand what you are asking me to check for???
 
hotblueelectric said:
Larry Fine

Henry, read each line-to-neutral voltage while experiencing the high neutral voltage.
__________________

I dont understand what you are asking me to check for???
Click to expand...
Look at the voltage from each ungrounded conductor to the neutral. I think that Larry suspects a problem with the service neutral, and I think he is correct. Be careful doing these tests with things like TVs, computers or microwaves connected. A problem with the service neutral creates a series parallel circuit with a higher voltage across the the items with the most impedance...in many cases the most expensive items.
 
Remember this house has no ground rod or egc, only cold water ground.
Customer also disconnected the cold water ground and he still reads 1.5 volts at the water faucet. Customer is having poco come out to check this out, but this is still puzzling to me. Why does'nt the voltage return back to its source through the water piping/ground. This is a lateral service it may be that the neutral has chafed somewhere underground and is touching one of the ungrounded conductors.
Thanks for all your feedback fellow electricians!
 
Henry,
He reads 1.5 volts from the faucet to what?. Is the house supplied by a metal underground water pipe system?
 
hotblueelectric said:
Checked all connections at the main panel, hots, neutrals, and grounds. Checked cold water ground at the water heater and tightened it up. Checked connections at the meter base and all connections tight. I asked customer to check the attic and make sure the cold water ground is complete from panel to water heater and not broken. This house was built in the 80,s. The only thing is there is no ground rod or ecg. Main panel neutral bar is correctly bonded to the case.
Click to expand...
Correct me where I'm assuming wrong.

Fact one: You, yourself, have observed and measured voltage on the water pipes.

Fact two: There should not be voltage on the water pipes.

Fact three: An earth ground will be connected to the power company transformer neutral terminal.

Fact four: A number of the neighbors' houses are also supplied by this same transformer.

Fact five: The service lateral neutral will be connected to your "cold water ground" at the 1980s house electrical service disconnect, and the "cold water ground" is connected to a metal cold water pipe at the water heater.

Fact six: The metal cold water pipe at the water heater is metal, without breaks, plastic or die-electric unions, all the way out to the street where the metal water pipe joins the metal water main under the street, which, in turn, connects the 1980s house neutral to all the other houses' neutrals in the neighborhood, and, in turn, connects the 1980s house neutral back to the transformer through the neighbor's houses.
hotblueelectric said:
Remember this house has no ground rod or egc, only cold water ground.
Customer also disconnected the cold water ground and he still reads 1.5 volts at the water faucet. Customer is having poco come out to check this out, but this is still puzzling to me. Why does'nt the voltage return back to its source through the water piping/ground.
Click to expand...
The continuity of the Grounding Electrode System is broken, and, maybe also, the continuity of the Service Lateral Neutral from the PoCo transformer to the Service Center Neutral Bar is broken.
hotblueelectric said:
This is a lateral service it may be that the neutral has chafed somewhere underground and is touching one of the ungrounded conductors.
Click to expand...
To say this another way, the neutral and the water pipe inside the house are "floating" free from electrical connection to the transformer neutral terminal. It sounds like there might be two breaks in continuity, but there might be only one.

Take voltage measurements between the two hot conductors and the neutral and the "ground" until you locate the break.
 
Is this house the only one on the utility transformer? How close is the nearest neighbor?
 
Fact one and Fact two say there IS a problem. You just haven't isolated it's location yet.

The connection to Earth is not going to enter into solution. It's a red monkey. That's 25Ω or greater, and compared to the wire and the metal pipe Ω is huge. The wire and the metal water pipe with good splices all the way through are WAY better than the connection to Earth.

(Now if there is a well, and / or no neighbor for miles, we've got to think about this a different way. . . I am assuming that "1980s Texas dwelling", which is all we know until you give more details, is a subdivision of dwellings on municipal water and sewer, and that the water utility is in all - metal piping throughout the subdivision.)
 
Thanks for all the help. POCO came out and it is a problem with their service feeders which they will be replacing. Probably direct burial feeders that got nicked or are old and cauding a problem.
 
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