Double Ended Substation / Kirk Key Needed?

[zog]

Let me throw another purely hypothetical scenario out here. Say production was shut down, and each side of the LV gear was supplying only 200 amps. If both main breakers were adjusted to 1000A, could all three breakers then be closed, and be in copliance with code? Or is that still in violation due to the parallel feed issue?

You still have the fault current issue to deal with, regardless of load. Plus if production is down why risk doing a closed transition switching?

 

[io748]

You still have the fault current issue to deal with, regardless of load. Plus if production is down why risk doing a closed transition switching?

I see.

There would be no reason to risk it. I was asking from an academic perspective.

 

[iwire]

Not me (This time), there is LV and MV involved here.

LOL, your just a med / high voltage guy. :smile:

The two 4000 amp breakers are switching what voltage?

 

[zog]

LOL, your just a med / high voltage guy. :smile:

The two 4000 amp breakers are switching what voltage?

Low Voltage, 480V.

 

[quogueelectric]

What Federal law are you talking about?

How about NFPA 70- E 2009 edition 120.2-5 (Electrical circuit interlocks) for starters. Are you for real?? You condone bypassing a kird key system??

 

[jim dungar]

How about NFPA 70- E 2009 edition 120.2-5 (Electrical circuit interlocks) for starters. Are you for real?? You condone bypassing a kird key system??

When did NFPA 70E become a Federal law? NFPA70E is one of several standards that a federal agency can use when enforcing employee safety in the workplace.

NFPA70E 120.2(E)-5 has to do with locking out circuits that are being worked on, it is not about interlocks for normal operation.

Yes, I am real (well at least that's what I tell myself).

When did I condone bypassing a key interlock scheme?

I am still confused about your point. Your original quote said:

Federal law prohibits this as you are probably not a qualified person to do this without an EE degree at minimum.

Are you saying that this action would allowed, by law, if the person performing it is qualified or has an EE degree?

 

[weressl]

How about NFPA 70- E 2009 edition 120.2-5 (Electrical circuit interlocks) for starters. Are you for real?? You condone bypassing a kird key system??

What Federal Law are you talking about?

Yes, there could be circumstances where a Kirk-key is no longer needed, if the original premise for using it no longer exist. Such interlocking systems are used fro otehr than safety purposes as well. There is nothing 'sacred' about the name Kirk, unless of course you're a Trekkie

 

[quogueelectric]

When did NFPA 70E become a Federal law? NFPA70E is one of several standards that a federal agency can use when enforcing employee safety in the workplace.

NFPA70E 120.2(E)-5 has to do with locking out circuits that are being worked on, it is not about interlocks for normal operation.

Yes, I am real (well at least that's what I tell myself).

When did I condone bypassing a key interlock scheme?

I am still confused about your point. Your original quote said:

Are you saying that this action would allowed, by law, if the person performing it is qualified or has an EE degree?

First,
I would say this falls under federal administrative law. Law
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
For other uses, see Law (disambiguation) and Legal (disambiguation).

Lady Justice is the symbol of the judiciary.[1][2] Justice is depicted as a goddess equipped with three symbols of the rule of law: a sword symbolizing the court's coercive power; scales representing the weighing of competing claims; and a blindfold indicating impartiality.[3]Law[4] is a system of rules, usually enforced through a set of institutions.[5] It shapes politics, economics and society in numerous ways and serves as a primary social mediator in relations between people. Contract law regulates everything from buying a bus ticket to trading on derivatives markets. Property law defines rights and obligations related to the transfer and title of personal and real property. Trust law applies to assets held for investment and financial security, while tort law allows claims for compensation if a person's rights or property are harmed. If the harm is criminalised in penal code, criminal law offers means by which the state can prosecute the perpetrator. Constitutional law provides a framework for the creation of law, the protection of human rights and the election of political representatives. Administrative law is used to review the decisions of government agencies, while international law governs affairs between sovereign nation states in activities ranging from trade to environmental regulation or military action. Writing in 350 BC, the Greek philosopher Aristotle declared, "The rule of law is better than the rule of any individual."[6]

Legal systems elaborate rights and responsibilities in a variety of ways. A general distinction can be made between civil law jurisdictions, which codify their laws, and common law systems, where judge made law is not consolidated. In some countries, religion still informs the law. Law provides a rich source of scholarly inquiry, such as legal history and philosophy, or social scientific perspectives such as economic analysis of law or the sociology of law. The study of law raises important and complex issues concerning equality, fairness, liberty and justice. "In its majestic equality", said the author Anatole France in 1894, "the law forbids rich and poor alike to sleep under bridges, beg in the streets and steal loaves of bread."[7] In a typical democracy, the central institutions for interpreting and creating law are the three main branches of government, namely an impartial judiciary, a democratic legislature, and an accountable executive. To implement and enforce the law and provide services to the public, a government's bureaucracy, the military and police are vital. While all these organs of the state are creatures created and bound by law, an independent legal profession and a vibrant civil society inform and support their progress.
Secondly,
In the powerplant I worked in EEs sometimes changed the control schemes of some very large and dangerous equipment as the drawings were drawn and installed the engineer had to sign off on the control diagramchange It seemed to me they had some sort of legal qualifications to make changes to these control circuits and had to sign off on responsibility for the changes. It seemed to me that they were what is described in the standards as a Qualified person.That is my point.
Thirdly,
I was asking if you condoned bypassing a Kird key in a piece of equipment simple answer yes or no.

 

[weressl]

First,
I would say this falls under federal administrative law. Law
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
For other uses, see Law (disambiguation) and Legal (disambiguation).

Lady Justice is the symbol of the judiciary.[1][2] Justice is depicted as a goddess equipped with three symbols of the rule of law: a sword symbolizing the court's coercive power; scales representing the weighing of competing claims; and a blindfold indicating impartiality.[3]Law[4] is a system of rules, usually enforced through a set of institutions.[5] It shapes politics, economics and society in numerous ways and serves as a primary social mediator in relations between people. Contract law regulates everything from buying a bus ticket to trading on derivatives markets. Property law defines rights and obligations related to the transfer and title of personal and real property. Trust law applies to assets held for investment and financial security, while tort law allows claims for compensation if a person's rights or property are harmed. If the harm is criminalised in penal code, criminal law offers means by which the state can prosecute the perpetrator. Constitutional law provides a framework for the creation of law, the protection of human rights and the election of political representatives. Administrative law is used to review the decisions of government agencies, while international law governs affairs between sovereign nation states in activities ranging from trade to environmental regulation or military action. Writing in 350 BC, the Greek philosopher Aristotle declared, "The rule of law is better than the rule of any individual."[6]

Legal systems elaborate rights and responsibilities in a variety of ways. A general distinction can be made between civil law jurisdictions, which codify their laws, and common law systems, where judge made law is not consolidated. In some countries, religion still informs the law. Law provides a rich source of scholarly inquiry, such as legal history and philosophy, or social scientific perspectives such as economic analysis of law or the sociology of law. The study of law raises important and complex issues concerning equality, fairness, liberty and justice. "In its majestic equality", said the author Anatole France in 1894, "the law forbids rich and poor alike to sleep under bridges, beg in the streets and steal loaves of bread."[7] In a typical democracy, the central institutions for interpreting and creating law are the three main branches of government, namely an impartial judiciary, a democratic legislature, and an accountable executive. To implement and enforce the law and provide services to the public, a government's bureaucracy, the military and police are vital. While all these organs of the state are creatures created and bound by law, an independent legal profession and a vibrant civil society inform and support their progress.
Secondly,
In the powerplant I worked in EEs sometimes changed the control schemes of some very large and dangerous equipment as the drawings were drawn and installed the engineer had to sign off on the control diagramchange It seemed to me they had some sort of legal qualifications to make changes to these control circuits and had to sign off on responsibility for the changes. It seemed to me that they were what is described in the standards as a Qualified person.That is my point.
Thirdly,
I was asking if you condoned bypassing a Kird key in a piece of equipment simple answer yes or no.

First: wrong

Second: it may have been a policy of the Company, but not an enforcable lawful obligation. (Now if you would have talked about PSM and MOC, that MAYBE a different issue, but it is unlikley in the case you cited. The substation in the OP definelty does NOT fall under those categories.)

Third: Insuffcient information was presented initially and even the suplemental information did not provided sufficent data to answer with a definitie yes or no. (The educated guess is that it should be NO, but it is a guess.)

 

[quogueelectric]

First: wrong

Second: it may have been a policy of the Company, but not an enforcable lawful obligation. (Now if you would have talked about PSM and MOC, that MAYBE a different issue, but it is unlikley in the case you cited. The substation in the OP definelty does NOT fall under those categories.)

Third: Insuffcient information was presented initially and even the suplemental information did not provided sufficent data to answer with a definitie yes or no. (The educated guess is that it should be NO, but it is a guess.)

First , I just got off the phone with a Supreme court judge and he told me that if you change the operation of this equipment you asume civil liability for sure. He felt that it may very well fall under osha rules. He had to get back to his jury but I will see him all day saturday and we can talk more.

 

[weressl]

First , I just got off the phone with a Supreme court judge and he told me that if you change the operation of this equipment you asume civil liability for sure. He felt that it may very well fall under osha rules. He had to get back to his jury but I will see him all day saturday and we can talk more.

That is news on me. I did not know Supreme Courts have juries.

Alito is telling that it is not so......:smile:

 

[jdsmith]

First: wrong

Second: it may have been a policy of the Company, but not an enforcable lawful obligation. (Now if you would have talked about PSM and MOC, that MAYBE a different issue, but it is unlikley in the case you cited. The substation in the OP definelty does NOT fall under those categories.)

Third: Insuffcient information was presented initially and even the suplemental information did not provided sufficent data to answer with a definitie yes or no. (The educated guess is that it should be NO, but it is a guess.)

I always thought the forum was a happy place, where I could be blissfully unaware of PSM, MOCs, PSRs, HAZOPs, etc. If only everyone outside of the petrochemical industry knew what we go through just to get work done - it makes normal OSHA and 70E requirements look easy. I know nuclear powerplants have more procedures than we do, but manufacturing plants have it easy!

 

[jim dungar]

First , I just got off the phone with a Supreme court judge and he told me that if you change the operation of this equipment you asume civil liability for sure. He felt that it may very well fall under osha rules. He had to get back to his jury but I will see him all day saturday and we can talk more.

I assume you mean a state supreme court judge.

Almost, every decision you make in the 'public' world has an amount of civil liability attached to it. But it is usually a state tort issue and not a federal case.

Under OSHA, the only people that can consider me qualified are my employers. They are the ones that set the requirements. Just having a PE (actually being a Registered Engineer) is not sufficient when it comes to NFPA70E. The opinion of a PE does not overrule that of the AHJ.

As others have stated, there is not enough information to pass judgment on this key interlock scheme.

 

[io748]

My intent of the original post was to determine if the key system was still needed based on the removal of a utility transformer, and if not, needed, could it be safely removed. The forum members informed me that the intent of the kirk key system was probably to ensure that the AIC ratings of the equipment would not be compromised, and that the key system should not be removed, at least until a study had been done by a qualified person and that person said otherwise. I got a good answer and learned some things. The system worked. There is no reason to take this to the supreme court, I think an out of court settlement is possible.

 

[zog]

There is no reason to take this to the supreme court, I think an out of court settlement is possible.

Thats funny stuff. Things tend to spiral out of control in this forum sometimes. I think you had all your questions ansered about 20 posts or so ago but that wont stop us from debating stuff that may or may not be related to the OP. Some of us can argue for 100 posts about the color of the sky

You want to see a good one, look up one of the many "Are 2 ground rods needed?" threads.

 

[io748]

I think I learned the most from the debate, even if most of it was caused by my inadequate description of the system!

Thats funny stuff. Things tend to spiral out of control in this forum sometimes. I think you had all your questions ansered about 20 posts or so ago but that wont stop us from debating stuff that may or may not be related to the OP. Some of us can argue for 100 posts about the color of the sky

You want to see a good one, look up one of the many "Are 2 ground rods needed?" threads.

 

[mivey]

Thats funny stuff. Things tend to spiral out of control in this forum sometimes. I think you had all your questions ansered about 20 posts or so ago but that wont stop us from debating stuff that may or may not be related to the OP. Some of us can argue for 100 posts about the color of the sky

You want to see a good one, look up one of the many "Are 2 ground rods needed?" threads.

It's always good to get the OP's question answered right away so we can go ahead and discuss what we want to talk about.

 

[quogueelectric]

It's always good to get the OP's question answered right away so we can go ahead and discuss what we want to talk about.

You would think that some of the engineers on this forum could clarify the legal responsibilities of being an ee and signing off on circuitry changes. I am not sure they even know how much liability they can incur. Lets say for example that an engineering change drops out the exciter current on a turbine and it becomes motorized and takes down the grid and smokes the turbine . Who is responsible for all of the losses in a situation like that?? The person who drew up the control diagram and signed off on it???? Or the power company? Or just not discuss anything that would put an engineers feet to the fire.

 

[mivey]

You would think that some of the engineers on this forum could clarify the legal responsibilities of being an ee and signing off on circuitry changes. I am not sure they even know how much liability they can incur. Lets say for example that an engineering change drops out the exciter current on a turbine and it becomes motorized and takes down the grid and smokes the turbine . Who is responsible for all of the losses in a situation like that?? The person who drew up the control diagram and signed off on it???? Or the power company? Or just not discuss anything that would put an engineers feet to the fire.

The company that made the change is responsible, of course. Unless there was some indemnity clause signed.

As far as making stupid changes on a system: Over the years, I have seen an increase in the use of "engineer-in-a-box" software. Some companies have become complacent in letting management and young, inexperienced engineers run some numbers (right or wrong) through some canned software and taking what comes out the other end and calling it gospel.

The industry is steadily losing the guys who have years of engineering knowledge. Some may not have a degree, but know just as much or more than some engineers. Some companies think they have gotten a bargain when they talked the old guys into an early retirement program and were able to hire the guys fresh out of school for a lot less. The ones who have the biggest wealth of knowledge are under-appreciated and have gone fishing.

The companies are responsible for the dumbing down of our industry and are responsible for the smoked turbine.

Rant off.

 

[weressl]

The company that made the change is responsible, of course. Unless there was some indemnity clause signed.

As far as making stupid changes on a system: Over the years, I have seen an increase in the use of "engineer-in-a-box" software. Some companies have become complacent in letting management and young, inexperienced engineers run some numbers (right or wrong) through some canned software and taking what comes out the other end and calling it gospel.

The industry is steadily losing the guys who have years of engineering knowledge. Some may not have a degree, but know just as much or more than some engineers. Some companies think they have gotten a bargain when they talked the old guys into an early retirement program and were able to hire the guys fresh out of school for a lot less. The ones who have the biggest wealth of knowledge are under-appreciated and have gone fishing.

The companies are responsible for the dumbing down of our industry and are responsible for the smoked turbine.

Rant off.

Hear-hear! Welcome to the "Global" economy with electrical design being done in India and Korea.