Are Recess Trims Needed?

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mkgrady

Senior Member
Location
Massachusetts
I wired a kitchen with 20-6" Halo housings (H7ICT). The customer wants to install LED Lamps/Trims but there are two problems. I don't find any LED lamps/trims that can be used and be UL approved in this can, and the cost of LED lamps/trims is very high at about $80 each.

Customer wants to wait for the cost to come down and the UL approval to happen. The question I have is: Can the inspector cite a code violation if I ask for a final inspection with just type A bulbs and no trims in place?

Mike
 
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mkgrady

Senior Member
Location
Massachusetts
MF Dagger said:
Why not ask the inspector?
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This inspector told me I can't use a twin breaker in a panel that is rated for twin breakers. He just doesn't like them. I didn't fight him on that because I decided to install a subpanel anyway, but in this case I want to know what the rules are before I bring up the trim question. If he can't cite a code violation my customer wants me to press the issue.
 
480sparky

480sparky

Senior Member
Location
Iowegia
mkgrady said:
This inspector told me I can't use a twin breaker in a panel that is rated for twin breakers. He just doesn't like them. I didn't fight him on that because I decided to install a subpanel anyway, but in this case I want to know what the rules are before I bring up the trim question. If he can't cite a code violation my customer wants me to press the issue.
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Personally (ever more so, professionally), I could care less whether the customer wants me to 'press the issue'. If the panel is rated for tandems, then the inspector CANNOT deny your installing them. DEMAND, I will repeat, DEMAND a Code reference.
 
J

John Deere Man

Member
Location
Colorado
As far as the trim issue. The code referance would be Art,110.3 - Not installed as listed. for a completed installation the trims need to be installed. As far as the tandem breakers. If the panel is listed for it then the inspector has no leg to stand on.
 
M

mkgrady

Senior Member
Location
Massachusetts
480sparky said:
Personally (ever more so, professionally), I could care less whether the customer wants me to 'press the issue'. If the panel is rated for tandems, then the inspector CANNOT deny your installing them. DEMAND, I will repeat, DEMAND a Code reference.
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The twin CB issue became moot because I decided I needed a sub panel after more work was added to the job. Why get him mad about a moot point?

I'm willing to get him mad over a point that matters though. On the trim issue I will press him for a code citation if I believe one does not exist. I'm trying to find out if one does exist.
 
480sparky

480sparky

Senior Member
Location
Iowegia
mkgrady said:
The twin CB issue became moot because I decided I needed a sub panel after more work was added to the job. Why get him mad about a moot point?............
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Because next time, he'll think he's correct because you didn't "press the issue". This type of inspector, who injects his own personal feelings and rules into our work, has no place in the industry.

Imagine driving down the road, and see the speed limit is 55, and you're doing 50. Next thing you know, the cops pull you over and give you ticket for speeding. You explain you were not speeding, but doing 50 in a 55 zone. Then the cops say, "We don't care what the sign says..... we say it's 40 today."
 
M

mkgrady

Senior Member
Location
Massachusetts
John Deere Man said:
As far as the trim issue. The code referance would be Art,110.3 - Not installed as listed. for a completed installation the trims need to be installed. As far as the tandem breakers. If the panel is listed for it then the inspector has no leg to stand on.
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I agree about the tandem CB issue.

On the Halo housing directions under the heading of Trim Installation it states: "Refer to lamp wattage label in the housing for approved lamps and corresponding trims". The rest talks about adjusting and or throwing away the socket plate. It doesn't say the trim must be installed. I would however be without a max wattage rating without a trim.

It just seems like in the best case scenario the trim is strictly cosmetic and when certain ones are used it reduces the wattage that can be used in the housing. I doubt I can make this fly but I thought I'd fish for ideas.
 
iwire

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
IMO you need the trim in order to have a UL listed light fixture.

I would tell the customer to pick out the cheapest trims they can find for now.
 
M

mkgrady

Senior Member
Location
Massachusetts
480sparky said:
Because next time, he'll think he's correct because you didn't "press the issue". This type of inspector, who injects his own personal feelings and rules into our work, has no place in the industry.

Imagine driving down the road, and see the speed limit is 55, and you're doing 50. Next thing you know, the cops pull you over and give you ticket for speeding. You explain you were not speeding, but doing 50 in a 55 zone. Then the cops say, "We don't care what the sign says..... we say it's 40 today."
Click to expand...

Well I can't argue with that. I guess what I'm saying is if a cop stops me for doing 40 in a 55 I will fight him vigorously and if I wanted to install tandems in that panel where they are allowed and the inspector rejects it I will fight him vigorously. I just don't want to fight about something that isn't a problem for me.
 
peter d

peter d

Senior Member
Location
New England
mkgrady said:
I wired a kitchen with 20-6" Halo housings (H7ICT). The customer wants to install LED Lamps/Trims but there are two problems. I don't find any LED lamps/trims that can be used and be UL approved in this can, and the cost of LED lamps/trims is very high at about $80 each.
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I saw the Halo LED display at the supply house and I could have sworn it was UL listed to be retrofitted into an H7 can. :confused:
 
M

mkgrady

Senior Member
Location
Massachusetts
peter d said:
I saw the Halo LED display at the supply house and I could have sworn it was UL listed to be retrofitted into an H7 can. :confused:
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I had one of the Halo brochures (can't find it now) and the language was real squirrely. I think it MAY be UL listed in a specific Halo can that is made for the LED. I say MAY because even that wording was suspect. I didn't spend much time on it because I already had the standard cans in the ceiling by the time I saw them.

My customer told me that Cree brand has a UL certification for being a retrofit into any 6" can. I asked him to send a copy of the certification and I have yet to receive it after 2 weeks. If it's the certification I found a few months ago it is not going to fly. I showed it to the inspector and he laughed at it. To me the certification implied that the product is made to UL standards but it did not say it was UL tested or listed
 
Dennis Alwon

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
mkgrady said:
I had one of the Halo brochures (can't find it now) and the language was real squirrely. I think it MAY be UL listed in a specific Halo can that is made for the LED. I say MAY because even that wording was suspect. I didn't spend much time on it because I already had the standard cans in the ceiling by the time I saw them.

My customer told me that Cree brand has a UL certification for being a retrofit into any 6" can. I asked him to send a copy of the certification and I have yet to receive it after 2 weeks. If it's the certification I found a few months ago it is not going to fly. I showed it to the inspector and he laughed at it. To me the certification implied that the product is made to UL standards but it did not say it was UL tested or listed
Click to expand...

Halo makes their own led trim that is listed for the H7 cans. Cree also makes one that is suitable for Halo.
 
brantmacga

brantmacga

Señor Member
Location
Georgia
Occupation
Former Child
i believe you need the trim in combination with the housing to have an airtight fixture. and i think the building code requires them to be airtight in an insulated ceiling.
 
M

mkgrady

Senior Member
Location
Massachusetts
M. D. said:
I found this ,.. I'd call them directly .
http://www.cooperlighting.com/common/brands/literature/Halo/LEDMiniBrochure.pdf
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Copied from brochure:

The HALO LED H7 Collection is in compliance with UL/cUL
requirements. The HALO LED fixture is designed to exceed the
highest energy efficiency codes and standards in the industry.
The LED Module is compatible with IC-rated HALO housings
for direct contact with insulation.The Halo LED recessed
luminaire exceeds high efficacy requirements for California
Title 24 with energy savings in excess of 75% when compared
to a 65W BR30 incandescent lamp and meets Restricted Air
Flow Standard ASTM-E283.

Being in compliance with requirements and being compatible is not the same as "UL Listed when used in a H7ICT housing"
 
M. D.

M. D.

Senior Member
This note appears just above the installation instructions

Note: Halo recessed luminaires (fixtures) are designed
to meet the latest NEC requirements and are UL/cUL
listed in full compliance with UL 1598. Before attempting
installation of any recessed lighting luminaire check your
local electrical code. This code sets the wiring stan-
dards for your locality and should be carefully studied
before starting.
 
M

mkgrady

Senior Member
Location
Massachusetts
M. D. said:
This note appears just above the installation instructions

Note: Halo recessed luminaires (fixtures) are designed
to meet the latest NEC requirements and are UL/cUL
listed in full compliance with UL 1598. Before attempting
installation of any recessed lighting luminaire check your
local electrical code. This code sets the wiring stan-
dards for your locality and should be carefully studied
before starting.
Click to expand...

That looks pretty convincing. Thanks
 
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