Home PF Correctin

[weressl]

Yes, it is either ignorance or lying neither of which reflects well on the product.

If youtube presentations had to abide by the UK Advertising Standards Agency guidelines, this kind of thing would not be permitted. I'm sure the US has similar standards. I suspect they don't have jurisdiction over what is published on the internet though.

If it is an advertisement, the same rules apply. If someone sells a product via a website, but nowhere else, and makes a statement as to its performance, the same 'truth in advertising' rules prevail as in any other forms of commerce.

 

[weressl]

I don't have the necessary equipment and time to prove it, but I'm pretty sure I'm damn right . This so called KWHour meter measures real power at or near PF 1. When Pf gets lower,it measures something between VA - KW.

That is not correct. The traditional kWHr meters use two coils, a current and voltage coil. The sum of the magnetic field, that creates the flux that causes the disc to rotate is representative of the actual power and since the voltage and current peaks occur away from each other when there is either inductive or capacitive component in the load. Electronic meters do the same by computation of the measured magnitudes and their relationship to each other.

 

[mivey]

I don't have the necessary equipment and time to prove it, but I'm pretty sure I'm damn right . This so called KWHour meter measures real power at or near
PF 1. When Pf gets lower,it measures something between VA - KW.

That is not correct. The traditional kWHr meters use two coils, a current and voltage coil. The sum of the magnetic field, that creates the flux that causes the disc to rotate is representative of the actual power and since the voltage and current peaks occur away from each other when there is either inductive or capacitive component in the load. Electronic meters do the same by computation of the measured magnitudes and their relationship to each other.

Exactly. The voltage coil flux is set to lag the current coil flux by 90 degrees for loads with unity pf. The meters have a lag adjustment to make sure this relation between the current and voltage coil is set correctly during the calibration process. This ensures proper metering for loads with non-unity pfs.

If the meter is out of adjustment, the meter will read fast or slow for non-unity loads. If it reads slow for lagging pf, it will read fast for leading pf and vice-versa.

The error is given by:
% error = 100 * (1 - metered/actual) = 100 * (cosA - cos(A+-B)) / cosA
where:
A = angle between line current and voltage
B = angle of error between line-current flux and voltage flux

 

[mach]

have you tried this one? I know i can stop that meter :roll:


http://www.ebunits.net/index.html

 

[Jraef]

have you tried this one? I know i can stop that meter :roll:


http://www.ebunits.net/index.html

You're joking, right?

Gotta love the "How it Works" text, it looks like it was written with some sort of "random buzz word generator".

The patented technology features a state of the art control module transformer that monitors, stores and distributes the proper amount of electricity to each operating load within the operating system. Beyond amperage and voltage phase to phase balancing, the EBU supplies TVSS transient surge and spike protection, and lightning protection to mitigate electrical disruptions. The SCADA and energy management is complimented by highest standard of activated harmonic filtration, and controlled capacitors for improved power factor correction. This EBU variable controller system responds to changing loads. This approach provides for maximum reduction of typical system losses and provides an immediate level of electrical energy efficiency that can be measured instantaneously or in Kw (Demand) and Kwh (Kilowatt hour – Consumption) as recorded on the monthly utility billing statement

A lot of words that meaqn absolutely nothing tangible... :roll:
I particularly love how they threw the term "SCADA" in there as if it is a verb.

 

[iMuse97]

I love how this keeps coming around: Just ran into an apprentice on a job last week that was going to reduce his electric consumption with one of these. I tried to point out that this was smoke & mirrors, snake oil, and just a touch of quack doctor, but to no avail. He's getting this thing and going to be a distributor for them, too. (Didn't have long enough to find out what "brand" it was.)

 

[mivey]

I love how this keeps coming around: Just ran into an apprentice on a job last week that was going to reduce his electric consumption with one of these. I tried to point out that this was smoke & mirrors, snake oil, and just a touch of quack doctor, but to no avail. He's getting this thing and going to be a distributor for them, too. (Didn't have long enough to find out what "brand" it was.)

Get him to send us a sample so we can test it for documentation.

Maybe to gar since he has too much time on his hands.:grin:

 

[ohmhead]

Well ive noticed lots of electrical contractors are getting into green energy and they think these will bring them easy work with our economy lacking .

Its a sad world when people today can be taken in by this and believe it .

I also have seen thur the years that most electricians fall short on electrical theory they go to abc school and there electricians thats it !

 

[VoltzElectric]

Industrial power factor

Industrial power factor

Off topic a little bit. Does POCO charge an industrial plant on apparant power or Real power?

 

[peter d]

Off topic a little bit. Does POCO charge an industrial plant on apparant power or Real power?

Actually, not off topic at all. Industrial accounts are charged for real power, but are penalized for poor power factor aka uncorrected apparent power.

 

[kevinkk]

real world bench test

real world bench test

I am going to try and run a real world bench test.

I would like your input on how I should run the test so the results are accepted.

My plan.

I have purchased a calibrated residential old school meter (spinning disk), I also have a fluke 435.

I will use a transformer to step up the 208 at my shop to 220, connect the fluke then the resi. Meter then connect the Load

My load will be a 220Volt swimming pool pump 2HP pumping water through a flow meter (GPM). I will run the pump for 2 hours recording all parameters on the fluke and KWHr on the resi meter, along with total gallons pumped.

I will run the experiment with and without an energy saver connected.

This should show what is saved and if the same amount of work was done.

If anyone has any suggestions please comment I will try to run this the second week of September, or if someone has already done this then you can save me a little time thanks

 

[Jraef]

I am going to try and run a real world bench test.

I would like your input on how I should run the test so the results are accepted.

My plan.

I have purchased a calibrated residential old school meter (spinning disk), I also have a fluke 435.

I will use a transformer to step up the 208 at my shop to 220, connect the fluke then the resi. Meter then connect the Load

My load will be a 220Volt swimming pool pump 2HP pumping water through a flow meter (GPM). I will run the pump for 2 hours recording all parameters on the fluke and KWHr on the resi meter, along with total gallons pumped.

I will run the experiment with and without an energy saver connected.

This should show what is saved and if the same amount of work was done.

If anyone has any suggestions please comment I will try to run this the second week of September, or if someone has already done this then you can save me a little time thanks

Sounds like a good experiment, I'll be interested in your results. Just be very accurate about your measurements.

By the way, Gallons per Minute (GPM) would be an acceptable measurement value for the work done, total gallons is meaningless without a time value, and you can get a GMP meter fairly cheap.

Or better yet, use one of these to set a specific volume of water delivery, then all you need to do is look at how much energy (kWH) went in to delivering it. The only trick would be timing the power shutoff exactly to where the flow meter shuts off.

 

[weressl]

Sounds like a good experiment, I'll be interested in your results. Just be very accurate about your measurements.

By the way, Gallons per Minute (GPM) would be an acceptable measurement value for the work done, total gallons is meaningless without a time value, and you can get a GMP meter fairly cheap.

Or better yet, use one of these to set a specific volume of water delivery, then all you need to do is look at how much energy (kWH) went in to delivering it. The only trick would be timing the power shutoff exactly to where the flow meter shuts off.

GPM without time integration IS meaningless when you emasure the consumed energy. The total VOLUME of pumped water, presuming that the head, water temperature and staring motor temperature remains the same and the consumed kWHR's. I would start with cross-calibrating the mechnical and electronic meters to establish the error difference between them. Since the Fluke is capable for much more accurate measurement on the short run I would only use that and compare the kWHr reading for two exactly same time periods with and without the 'power saver'.

I think a two hour period is way too short. ( A 1 kW motor would use 2 kWHr in 2 hours. A reading of 2.01 and 2 is very difficult to distinguish on a spinning disc meter. If it is on the low end of the Fluke's CT span the error from one measurement to the other could be also indistinguishable from the difference.)

 

[gar]

090828-1245 EST

kevinkk:

I am also interested in your results.

Following are some things to consider in your experiment:

Virtually all transducers are analog. Thus, there are accuracy, repeatability, linearity, and monotonicity factors to consider.

I would like to see you use a 120 V single phase measurement with the KWH meter without adding a main power transformer. Or find a different location to run the experiment where a 120-0-120 secondary exists. This would be to reduce source impedance problems with the power factor correcting capacitor.

This might be done by using your neutral to line of one phase as the power source. Use only the neutral and one hot line thru the KWH meter to your load. Since I believe only a single voltage coil exists in the KWH meter a voltage from a small control transformer would be needed to supply voltage to the other hot leg thru the KWH meter. By correctly phasing the control transformer from the 120 line to neutral supply you can get the necessary 180 deg phase shift.

The Fluke should be used simultaneously with the spinning disk meter. The Fluke current probe should precede the KWH meter, and the Fluke voltage leads should be on the output side of the KWH meter.

Let one hot wire to the PF correction capacitor float (left unconnected).

In all experiments measure Fluke voltage, current, and power. Record KWH meter direction of rotation, and time for X revolutions.

Experiment 1. No load on KWH meter. KWH should not rotate. Fluke current and power should be near zero. Note the voltage coil of the KWH meter requires some power.

Experiment 2. PF capacitor only load. There should be a small increase in power consumption.

Experiment 3. A resistor only load that produces near the same current as the PF capacitor.

Experiment 4. Both PF cap and resistor of exp 2 and 3 as the load. The power reading should be the sum of exp 2 and 3 assuming voltage is unchanged.

Experiment 5. Use a mechanically unloaded 1/3 or 1/2 HP motor as the load. Wait for a steady state reading of power consumption.

Experiment 6. Same as 5 except add the PF capacitor. Power should be the sum of exp 2 and 5 assuming voltage is constant.

,