I feel this may have been hashed out before, but in 424.19 the word simultaneously was added in '08. Does this mean that if I have a 15kw unit that the 60 amp and the 30 amp circuit breakers on the unit have to be handle tied or something to that affect? Or does it just mean for each circuit that they have to be tied?
424.19
- Thread starter lmchenry
- Start date
- Status
- Location
- Lockport, IL
- Occupation
- Semi-Retired Electrical Engineer
I don't know what you mean by the 60 amp breaker and the 30 amp breaker. What do they do? If these are 240 volt, 2-pole breakers, then I would not expect there to be a listed handle tie for the pair. Do you suppose they intend you to provide a separate breaker upstream of the 60 and the 30, and put the 60 and the 30 in a separate enclosure?
- Location
- New Jersey
- Occupation
- Journeyman Electrician
Here's the section:
I would guess that if there is more than one supply you would need to comply with the bold sentence by marking and grouping those disconnects together.
I would guess that if there is more than one supply you would need to comply with the bold sentence by marking and grouping those disconnects together.
Twoskinsoneman
Senior Member
- Location
- West Virginia, USA NEC: 2020
- Occupation
- Facility Senior Electrician
A lot of HVAC equipment (like heat pumps around my area) require two circuits such as the 60 and 30 in the OP example. These are both 240v circuits that land in the equipment usually on fuses. The circuits power the electric heat, blower, controls...
I think according to 424.19 as the OP pointed out BOTH the 60 and the 30 dp breakers would have to be tied together to open simultaneously...
- Location
- Lockport, IL
- Occupation
- Semi-Retired Electrical Engineer
My only problem here is that if you have two breakers on the same panel, I do not see that as being two separate "sources," in the context of the words you showed in bold text. On the other hand, I can't see supplying the same heating equipment from two separate panels. So nothing makes sense to me.
- Location
- Lockport, IL
- Occupation
- Semi-Retired Electrical Engineer
I have seen single pole breakers with handle ties. Do they make (and list) handle ties for two pole breakers?
Twoskinsoneman
Senior Member
- Location
- West Virginia, USA NEC: 2020
- Occupation
- Facility Senior Electrician
My only problem here is that if you have two breakers on the same panel, I do not see that as being two separate "sources," in the context of the words you showed in bold text. On the other hand, I can't see supplying the same heating equipment from two separate panels. So nothing makes sense to me.
I agree with this 100% charlie.
I have never seen them......If 424.19 says what it appears to say it will cause a lot more work.
I think your going to be hard pressed to find someone to agree that separate sources of electricity just means from a seperate circuit. I can think a few places in the code that are being interrpreted very wrongly if that is the case.
Twoskinsoneman
Senior Member
- Location
- West Virginia, USA NEC: 2020
- Occupation
- Facility Senior Electrician
I can't find the ROP to explain this change. Does anyone else see it?
17-33 Log #2036 NEC-P17
Final Action: Accept
(424.19)
_______________________________________________________________
Submitter:
Submitter:
James T. Dollard, Jr., IBEW Local 98
Recommendation:
Revise text to read as follows:
424.19 Disconnecting Means
Means shall be provided to disconnect the heater, motor controller(s), and
supplementary overcurrent protective device(s) of all fixed electric spaceheating
equipment from all ungrounded conductors. Where heating equipment
is supplied by more than one source, the disconnecting means shall be grouped
and marked. The provision for locking or adding a lock to the disconnecting
means shall be installed on or at the switch or circuit breaker used as the
disconnecting means and shall remain in place with or without the lock
installed.
Substantiation:
Means shall be provided to disconnect the heater, motor controller(s), and
supplementary overcurrent protective device(s) of all fixed electric spaceheating
equipment from all ungrounded conductors. Where heating equipment
is supplied by more than one source, the disconnecting means shall be grouped
and marked. The provision for locking or adding a lock to the disconnecting
means shall be installed on or at the switch or circuit breaker used as the
disconnecting means and shall remain in place with or without the lock
installed.
Substantiation:
The problem with the present wording of this section is that
Ballot Results: Affirmative: 13
the disconnect in many Fixed Electric Space-Heating Equipment applications is
a circuit breaker in a panelboard or a switch that is not made with permanent
provisions for locking the circuit breaker or switch in the open position.
This requirement for a disconnect is for the safety of the installer/maintainer
of the equipment. Permanent provisions for making circuit breakers and
switches capable of being locked in the open position are readily available
from circuit breaker and switch manufacturers.
This proposal does not represent a large increase in the cost of an installation
but will result in a dramatic increase in safety.
Where Fixed Electric Space-Heating Equipment is involved we know that
maintenance will take place, we must ensure that only a lock is needed by an
installer/maintainer to work safely.
The practical safeguarding of persons from electrical hazards as detailed in
the scope of the NEC must not be permitted to hinge on whether or not an
installer just happens to have enough different types of devices and hopefully
one that that happens to fit the circuit breaker or switch in an installation.
Note that this language was accepted by CMP-11 and is a present requirement,
in the 2002 NEC, when a circuit breaker or switch is used as a disconnectinga circuit breaker in a panelboard or a switch that is not made with permanent
provisions for locking the circuit breaker or switch in the open position.
This requirement for a disconnect is for the safety of the installer/maintainer
of the equipment. Permanent provisions for making circuit breakers and
switches capable of being locked in the open position are readily available
from circuit breaker and switch manufacturers.
This proposal does not represent a large increase in the cost of an installation
but will result in a dramatic increase in safety.
Where Fixed Electric Space-Heating Equipment is involved we know that
maintenance will take place, we must ensure that only a lock is needed by an
installer/maintainer to work safely.
The practical safeguarding of persons from electrical hazards as detailed in
the scope of the NEC must not be permitted to hinge on whether or not an
installer just happens to have enough different types of devices and hopefully
one that that happens to fit the circuit breaker or switch in an installation.
Note that this language was accepted by CMP-11 and is a present requirement,
means not within sight of a motor. Also included in the 2005 NEC is the same
language in 422.31 for appliances
The same level of safety is needed for these disconnecting means for Fixed
Electric Space-Heating Equipment.
Panel Meeting Action: Accept
Number Eligible to Vote: 13
language in 422.31 for appliances
The same level of safety is needed for these disconnecting means for Fixed
Electric Space-Heating Equipment.
Panel Meeting Action: Accept
Number Eligible to Vote: 13
Ballot Results: Affirmative: 13
Twoskinsoneman
Senior Member
- Location
- West Virginia, USA NEC: 2020
- Occupation
- Facility Senior Electrician
I saw that one. It doesn't saying anything about adding the word simultaneous
Sorry I meant the word simultaneously
Sorry I meant the word simultaneously
Last edited:
Submitter:
Daniel Leaf, Seneca, SC
Recommendation:
Revise as follows:
Means A switch or circuit breaker that simultaneously disconnects all
ungrounded conductors of the circuit shall be provided to disconnect the
heater(s), motor(s), controller(s), and supplementary overcurrent device(s)
from all ungrounded conductors . In (A)(1) and (2) delete the second word
?above.?
Means A switch or circuit breaker that simultaneously disconnects all
ungrounded conductors of the circuit shall be provided to disconnect the
heater(s), motor(s), controller(s), and supplementary overcurrent device(s)
from all ungrounded conductors . In (A)(1) and (2) delete the second word
?above.?
Substantiation:
Edit. No specific type of disconnect is indicated. Lugs,
terminals, wire connectors, etc. are means of disconnecting. The word ?above?
can be perceived as referring to the immediate preceding paragraph or all
preceding paragraphs.
terminals, wire connectors, etc. are means of disconnecting. The word ?above?
can be perceived as referring to the immediate preceding paragraph or all
preceding paragraphs.
Panel Meeting Action: Reject
Panel Statement:
Panel Statement:
The disconnecting means can be other than a switch or
circuit breaker. Specific means via reference to other articles and their
respective permitted disconnect types are indicated in the remainder of 424.19.
Article 424, in general, and 424.19(A)(2) specifically, indicate disconnects for
motor controllers from Article 430. These are not limited to switches and
circuit breakers.
circuit breaker. Specific means via reference to other articles and their
respective permitted disconnect types are indicated in the remainder of 424.19.
Article 424, in general, and 424.19(A)(2) specifically, indicate disconnects for
motor controllers from Article 430. These are not limited to switches and
circuit breakers.
Number Eligible to Vote: 13
Ballot Results:
Ballot Results:
Affirmative: 13
_______________________________________________________________
Strange. From those posts, it looks like they rejected the term "simultaneously" yet it made it to the Code.
I'm sure we could play a word game, but if the disconnects are grouped and all circuits can be disconnected at the same time prior to working on the unit, I would be prone to accept that as "simultaneous"
I'm sure we could play a word game, but if the disconnects are grouped and all circuits can be disconnected at the same time prior to working on the unit, I would be prone to accept that as "simultaneous"
Twoskinsoneman
Senior Member
- Location
- West Virginia, USA NEC: 2020
- Occupation
- Facility Senior Electrician
Thats the one. Can you post the header infor showing log # and all that?
Thanks.
Twoskinsoneman
Senior Member
- Location
- West Virginia, USA NEC: 2020
- Occupation
- Facility Senior Electrician
Because the proposal was rejected....
17-32 Log #958 NEC-P17 Final Action: Reject
(424.19)
_______________________________________________________________
Submitter: Daniel Leaf, Seneca, SC
Recommendation: Revise as follows:
Means A switch or circuit breaker that simultaneously disconnects all
ungrounded conductors of the circuit shall be provided to disconnect the
heater(s), motor(s), controller(s), and supplementary overcurrent device(s)
from all ungrounded conductors . In (A)(1) and (2) delete the second word
?above.?
Substantiation: Edit. No specific type of disconnect is indicated. Lugs,
terminals, wire connectors, etc. are means of disconnecting. The word ?above?
can be perceived as referring to the immediate preceding paragraph or all
preceding paragraphs.
Panel Meeting Action: Reject
Panel Statement: The disconnecting means can be other than a switch or
circuit breaker. Specific means via reference to other articles and their
respective permitted disconnect types are indicated in the remainder of 424.19.
Article 424, in general, and 424.19(A)(2) specifically, indicate disconnects for
motor controllers from Article 430. These are not limited to switches and
circuit breakers.
Number Eligible to Vote: 13
Ballot Results: Affirmative: 13
_______________________________________________________________(424.19)
_______________________________________________________________
Submitter: Daniel Leaf, Seneca, SC
Recommendation: Revise as follows:
Means A switch or circuit breaker that simultaneously disconnects all
ungrounded conductors of the circuit shall be provided to disconnect the
heater(s), motor(s), controller(s), and supplementary overcurrent device(s)
from all ungrounded conductors . In (A)(1) and (2) delete the second word
?above.?
Substantiation: Edit. No specific type of disconnect is indicated. Lugs,
terminals, wire connectors, etc. are means of disconnecting. The word ?above?
can be perceived as referring to the immediate preceding paragraph or all
preceding paragraphs.
Panel Meeting Action: Reject
Panel Statement: The disconnecting means can be other than a switch or
circuit breaker. Specific means via reference to other articles and their
respective permitted disconnect types are indicated in the remainder of 424.19.
Article 424, in general, and 424.19(A)(2) specifically, indicate disconnects for
motor controllers from Article 430. These are not limited to switches and
circuit breakers.
Number Eligible to Vote: 13
Ballot Results: Affirmative: 13
But the language is still present in the Code.
Maybe it was revisited by the CMP. Maybe a TCC somehow hot it through. Maybe Dan paid them off.
Maybe the NEC has a major typo in it.
Twoskinsoneman
Senior Member
- Location
- West Virginia, USA NEC: 2020
- Occupation
- Facility Senior Electrician
I am not as versed about the process of changing the NEC as you guys are. Is it legal for changes to be made without a proposal? If it is where do they have to document the change? Or do they have to?
Take a look at the schedule for the next code in the back of the one you have right now... way back in the end... past the index...
- Status