Panel replacement & AFCI

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Ken9876

Senior Member
Location
Jersey Shore
When replacing a panel do the breakers need to be upgraded to the AFCI type, or does this fall under a grandfather rule, this install would be in NJ
 
D

dcspector

Senior Member
Location
Burke, Virginia
Ken9876 said:
When replacing a panel do the breakers need to be upgraded to the AFCI type, or does this fall under a grandfather rule, this install would be in NJ
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Ken I would contact the Building Dept. I know when I was in Florida and Indiana if a permit was pulled which should have been for a panel change out that the AFCI's were required. One of those AHJ things.
 
acrwc10

acrwc10

Master Code Professional
Location
CA
Occupation
Building inspector
I'm not in NJ, but I would question how ( if AFCI's are required ) you would address any existing MWBC that are existing ? There is no NEC requirement to add AFCI's to an existing system.
 
Twoskinsoneman

Twoskinsoneman

Senior Member
Location
West Virginia, USA NEC: 2020
Occupation
Facility Senior Electrician
It is just MO but the NEC is not retroactive...and considering the current installation (like MWBCs that have been mentioned) may make it nearly impossible to install the AFCIs I would be against a rule to force it...

IMO it will cause people to not get the work done they need.

I need to upgrade my service and it is going to cost a certain amount.

Now I find out it will cost triple that amount because I need a bunch of AFCIs and re-wire the entire house....

Sounds like time to call a handy-hack who will do it without the permit.
 
infinity

infinity

Moderator
Staff member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Journeyman Electrician
From what I've heard AFCI protection will not be required when upgrading a service. For one the issue of MWBC's could complicate things. But to be sure I would call Suzanne Borek of the DCA (609)984-7609 down in Trenton for the "official" ruling. A five minute phone call will get you the correct information. You could ask the local building department but you may not get the right answer. You could try and look here for a possible answer to your question:

http://www.state.nj.us/dca/codes/
 
D

dcspector

Senior Member
Location
Burke, Virginia
Twoskinsoneman said:
Hey I don't condone it! :smile:

I am saying that it is natural that when the rules become unreasonable even good people will start trying to work around them.
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Actually I thought your comment was funny......I knew you were kidding and hey I agree that would drive people to not pull a permit. Kinda like me with existing conditions....:D:D:D
 
cschmid

cschmid

Senior Member
Location
Northern cold country
Interesting thought process here..

So when the rules become unreasonable people try and find ways around them. Hence the hack calls.

When money becomes the driving factor they call the handyman extra ordinary or known to us as hack the handyman.

So who determines when the rules are unreasonable....us...the homeowner..The courts...the legislators..Who...

What no new rules why the heck are you getting together just to have coffee, maybe we should just disband the whole organization..

So are the rules that govern us really necessary or a by-product of a system that is an integral part of the machine..

No way would I stir the pot on a Sunday and then leave..:D :D
 
cschmid

cschmid

Senior Member
Location
Northern cold country
Back to the original question I would think you should be able to replace the panel without making the whole house 2008 code compliant.. as long as the panel install is 2008 code compliant. the attached branch circuits are not being modified until you add the AFCI breaker. they were designed and installed to another code and you are not modifing the branch circuit..all you are doing is replacing old parts with new parts and the new parts are more superior then the old parts.. JMHO..:D
 
K

Ken9876

Senior Member
Location
Jersey Shore
Thanks for all the replies, I'll call the DCA and local building dept. Still don't know which way I want to go with this job. Old 100 A pushmatic panel, 40 year old equipment, meter pan doesn't look so great from the outside, I want to rip it all out and install a meter main and move the panel to the basement where I belive it should of been in the first place. I find it amazing the HO will spend thousands to polish a turd, but will not want to spend a penny to make their home safe.
 
GeorgeB

GeorgeB

ElectroHydraulics engineer (retired)
Location
Greenville SC
Occupation
Retired
M. D. said:
I believe AFCI protection was an option under 2005 in N. J.
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I believe that you will find the 2005 to require AFCI BEGINNING in 2008 ... in more limited areas than the 2008 code does. But that is not a comment on what is required in an upgrade.
 
infinity

infinity

Moderator
Staff member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Journeyman Electrician
Ken9876 said:
Thanks for all the replies, I'll call the DCA and local building dept. Still don't know which way I want to go with this job. Old 100 A pushmatic panel, 40 year old equipment, meter pan doesn't look so great from the outside, I want to rip it all out and install a meter main and move the panel to the basement where I belive it should of been in the first place. I find it amazing the HO will spend thousands to polish a turd, but will not want to spend a penny to make their home safe.
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Required or not you could try to sell them as an extra safety device. Either way your new installation will be better than the old. In fact because of that it may fall under the rehab code.
 
M. D.

M. D.

Senior Member
GeorgeB said:
I believe that you will find the 2005 to require AFCI BEGINNING in 2008 ... in more limited areas than the 2008 code does. But that is not a comment on what is required in an upgrade.
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I can't see anything in this that suggests that


3. Chapter 2 of the electrical subcode, entitled "Wiring and Protection," is amended as follows:

i. Section 210.12(B) of Article 210, entitled "Branch Circuits," is amended to insert the following sentence at the end of the section, "This requirement shall be considered optional."
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It seems optional to me ,....Do you have an article ???

http://www.nema.org/stds/fieldreps/codealerts/20060505nj.cfm
 
cschmid

cschmid

Senior Member
Location
Northern cold country
dcspector said:
Easier that way........:D
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man the way I see it is a day having cyber fun or a day with the family at our reunion..No contest ..

Yet the story thickens now..now it is a meter base and a move to the basement..now more to deal with since you now incorporate a BC extension. I would be interested in knowing what they say. As I would seek AHJ opinon before even bidding this one. since he is final authority..
 
N

newinspector1

Member
Location
NC
cschmid said:
Back to the original question I would think you should be able to replace the panel without making the whole house 2008 code compliant.. as long as the panel install is 2008 code compliant. the attached branch circuits are not being modified until you add the AFCI breaker. they were designed and installed to another code and you are not modifing the branch circuit..all you are doing is replacing old parts with new parts and the new parts are more superior then the old parts.. JMHO..:D
Click to expand...

I agree with schmid
 
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