PF Correction Capacitors

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sparkyboys

Senior Member
Location
Columbus, ga
To Charlie B/Moderator:

Awesome post about Power Factor in VA vs WATTS. This definitely gave myself a better understanding about PF, how it works, and how it relates, including the three different types of power.

Now could you do the same thing for;Power Factor Correction Capacitors?

I know somewhat how a capacitor works from doing car stereo installations with amps, capacitors, and subs. But i feel like its different from a commercial stand point when dealing with VFDs.

Please help clarify the situation.
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
Simply speaking, a capacitor alternately stores and releases energy. It shifts current timing is because the current into (through, really) a cap on AC is the greatest when the voltage is at the greatest rate of change, crossing the 0v point.

The capacitive current leads the voltage each half cycle by 1/4 of a cycle, what we call 90 deg. All capacitive current leads by 90 degrees, but most loads are partially resistive, too, so part of the current is in phase.

Added: The PF reflects the ratio of the resistive and capacitive (or inductive) currents.

In electronics, we think of a capacitor as a device that passes AC and blocks DC, and an inductor as a device that passes DC and blocks AC. The effect is actually linear, dependent on frequency, but we stick with a single frequency, 60Hz.

The current though an inductive load lags the voltage by the same 90 degrees,, the PF again the ratio between resistive and inductive currents. Adding capacitance to an inductive load can counteract the inductive current, bringing the overall ratio closer to 1:1.

However, the conductors and equipment between the inductive load and the capacitive correction must still be sized for both the real power's current and the inductive and capacitive (collectively known as reactive) current.

The closer the correction to the offender, the smaller the upsized system portions must be. If there is no correction, everything back to the POCO generation equipment is in the loop, and must carry the reactive as well as resistive currents.
 
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sparkyboys

Senior Member
Location
Columbus, ga
larryfine, i am kinda understanding what you are saying, but your sentence structure is a little breaky. can you clarify more? not trying to mock you, but its thorough enough. i just want it to be clear, even if it is a lot to read. thanks for your time.
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
can you clarify more?
I can try. I type this stuff as it pops into my head, so it can be a bit sketchy. Can you ask specific questions?


The idea behind PF correction is to counteract the effects of inductive loads with capacitance. If selected properly, the correction can cancel the inductance completely, although that's not the usual design goal.

What happens in real life is the reactive current bounces back and forth between the inductance and the capacitance, twice per cycle. That current contributes to conductor heating just like 'real' current does.
 

sparkyboys

Senior Member
Location
Columbus, ga
1.The idea behind PF correction is to counteract the effects of inductive loads with capacitance. If selected properly, the correction can cancel the inductance completely, although that's not the usual design goal.

when you talk about "if selected properly", do you mean:
A-wire size?
B-capacitor size?
C-how many capacitors?

2.What happens in real life is the reactive current bounces back and forth between the inductance and the capacitance, twice per cycle.

Like a car battery being charged?

3.That current contributes to conductor heating just like 'real' current does.

The heat that is created from bouncing back and forth, is that what is charging the capacitors?
Sort of like static from friction?
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
1. when you talk about "if selected properly", do you mean:
A-wire size?
B-capacitor size?
C-how many capacitors?
B. If the reactive impedance of the capacitor matches the reactive impedance of the inductor, they'll cancel.

2. Like a car battery being charged?
Yes, but charged and discharged 120 times per second.

3. Sort of like static from friction?
No, like any current makes any wire warm.

Well, on the molecular level, yes, from friction.
 

sparkyboys

Senior Member
Location
Columbus, ga
If the reactive impedance of the capacitor matches the reactive impedance of the inductor, they'll cancel.

charged and discharged 120 times per second.
We are getting somewhere now.
This is all one question
how does the reactive impedance of the capacitor and reactive impedance of the inductor, relate with real power, apparent power, and reactive power?

In the post by Charlie B. he talks about these three powers on a triangle 1-2:real power, 1-3: apparent power, 2-3: reactive power, and 3-4 PF. you may have to ref. back to that post in VA vs WATTS.

Does this deal with a fluctuation between AC-DC-AC from both sources of the VFD and the motor?
 

rattus

Senior Member
Fine Point:

Fine Point:

Actually, in AC, the capacitor is charged in one direction 60 times per second, then it is charged in the other direction 60 times per second. That is, the cap voltage alternates between the positive and negative peak voltages 60 times per second. So, a PF cap on a 240V line would see peaks of 340V and -340V. The reactive current would be,

I = V*2*pi*60*C
 

charlie b

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Lockport, IL
Occupation
Retired Electrical Engineer
Try this: Draw two circles about six inches apart, and connect them with a straight line. Label the point at which the line hits the left circle as point “A.” Label the point at which the line hits the right circle as point “B.” Label a third point, about one inch to the left of B, as point “C.” Finally, label a point in the middle of the line as point “D.”

Let’s say the left circuit is a generator, the right circle is a motor, and the line represents the branch circuit wires that connect them. The generator windings store and release energy by using the magnetic fields that vary up and down with the alternating current. So too do the motor windings. There is a continuous exchange of energy, back and forth, between the two sets of windings. This exchange is sort of a “necessary evil,” in that it produces no work on its own right, but without it the generator could not make the motor spin.

Thus, there are two types of energy being exchanged between the two machines, between points A and B, as shown on your drawing. One type, which we describe as “real power,” is the energy exchange that causes the motor to produce work. The other type, which we describe as “reactive power,” is the (sort of, almost, perhaps “useless”) exchange between the magnetic fields of the two machines. The utility must produce energy at a rate that is sufficient to supply both types of power. The two types are added up in the way I describe with the triangle, in the other thread, with the result being called “apparent power.” So if the utility were to install an “apparent power meter,” and place it at point D, it would give you a measurement that is greater than the “real power” needed to perform the motor’s work.

Now let us install a “power factor capacitor” at point C, and size it to achieve a 1.0 power factor. This device will store and release energy by using an electric field (between the capacitor’s parallel plates) that varies up and down with the alternating current. What happens now is that you get an exchange of energy between the electric field of the capacitor and the magnetic field of the motor. It is the same sort of energy exchange we saw before, but now it is taking place between points C and B. Because of this, the energy exchange that had been taking place between the generator windings and the motor windings no longer happens. That is, the utility meter at point D will no longer see this energy exchange. Thus, the utility sees a value of apparent power that is exactly the same as the real power drawn by the motor. That is a smaller value then the meter had measured before, so to do the same work the utility need not supply as much power.

If you were to stand between points C and B, with blinders on, so that you could see neither left nor right of your position, and if you were to measure power factor before and after the capacitor were installed, you would not know that anything different had happened. Before the capacitor is connected, you witnessed an energy exchange between something to your left and something to your right. After the capacitor is connected, you still see that energy exchange. What you could not know was that beforehand, the energy exchange involved a generator and its magnetic field, and afterwards the energy exchange involved a capacitor and its electric field. Only if you were allowed to move to point D could you discern a difference in the two situations.
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
B. If the reactive impedance of the capacitor matches the reactive impedance of the inductor, they'll cancel.

Wouldn't this be resonance?
Yes, and a ringing current bounces back and forth between the capacitor and the inductor. That's why we can't ignore the reactive current between the load and its correction.
 

sparkyboys

Senior Member
Location
Columbus, ga
Thanks:

Thanks:

To LarryFine and Charlie B. for interpreting PF and PFCCs. I now have a better understanding of how these two processes work. As a journeyman, i can only learn so much from school and OJT. But being able to ask complicated questions to this forum, I have learned much more. I will continue reading and rereading these posts to better understand what I am doing in the commercial field. Thanks for all your posts, time, and well thought out answers for me and everyone else who ever has problems understanding the two.
Sincerely, SparkyBoys.
 
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