Hot tub disconnect

[slick 50]

I would appreciate any advise on this situation. When feeding the hot tub disconnect from the inside main panel, is it allowed to install the 50 amp GFI on the inside main panel and have a standard thermal mag breaker by the tub. If done this way, would you still have to run 4 wire out to tub disconnect in order to have an isolated neutral? Actually, this is not something I do. There is a contractor that said he has done the last 10 he wired with the GFI inside. I cannot find it in 680.40 of NEC where it says anything about it. I would think you would still need 4 wire out to the spa panel because it is a sub.:-?:-?

Thanks

 

[iwire]

One important thing you left out is if this 'sub' is located on a separate building or structure.

But the GFCI can be anyplace but the panel will need a disconnecting means if it is located on/in a separate building or structure, it would also need grounding electrode(s).

The panel will need to have a 4 wire feeder no matter where the GFCI is located.

 

[slick 50]

There is no seperate building. lets just say that the tub is outside on a patio.

 

[Pierre C Belarge]

There is no need for another overcurrent device, the GFCI in the panel is sufficient.
You will need a maintenance disconnect within site of the hottub, that disconnect can be nonfused if using a GFCI in the panel as described above.
You will still need to install 2-ungrounded conductors, 1-grounded conductor, and 1-equipment ground conductor.

 

[mark32]

Hopefully I'm not way off here

Hopefully I'm not way off here

In this case, installing the GFCI breaker in the main panel, couldn't this gentleman install just a simple non fused pull out type disconnect and feed it with 2 ungrounded conductors and the egc? If the tub does not need a neutral, and this is not intended to be a distribution panel, why pull it out there?

 

[rcarroll]

In this case, installing the GFCI breaker in the main panel, couldn't this gentleman install just a simple non fused pull out type disconnect and feed it with 2 ungrounded conductors and the egc? If the tub does not need a neutral, and this is not intended to be a distribution panel, why pull it out there?

I've only hooked up a few hot tubs. All have required full sized neuts & grnds.

 

[LarryFine]

The GFCI can be wired anywhere between the source and the load.

The GFCI breaker requires 4 conductors to it, no matter where it is.

The neutral must be run on to the hot tub only if the tub requires it.

The hot tub's local disconnect can be a switch, breaker, or pull-out.

Outside the house's walls, the EGC must be an insulated conductor.

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

Most new tubs will need neutral
gfi will stay dryer if inside but has disadvantage of being harder on user to reset
pull out is legal but not great in emergancy or to deal with in wet location
For my own i have gfi breaker outside at 6 feet from tub and insight for added safety.
For residential all you need is disconnect in sight of equipment but that is a min.

 

[brantmacga]

In this case, installing the GFCI breaker in the main panel, couldn't this gentleman install just a simple non fused pull out type disconnect and feed it with 2 ungrounded conductors and the egc? If the tub does not need a neutral, and this is not intended to be a distribution panel, why pull it out there?

I've hooked up somewhere in the neighborhood of 100 hot tubs, and I haven't seen any that didn't require a neutral. But if it does not, then yes, the method you describe will work.

The GFCI breaker requires 4 conductors to it, no matter where it is.

You mean three in and one out? :wink:

The hot tub's local disconnect can be a switch, breaker, or pull-out.

Does anyone make a disconnect with an isolated neutral buss? It would be nice to put a $15 QO200TR A/C disconnect out there, but they have only a grounding bar.

An almost identical case w/ the isolated neutral buss and grounding bar is almost $70. But I always get those plastic spa package setups w/ the GFCI included for $59 @ Lowe's. If I purchase the components separately at the supply house it runs me about $180. :-?

 

[LarryFine]

You mean three in and one out? :wink:

Yeah, that's it. :grin:

Does anyone make a disconnect with an isolated neutral buss? It would be nice to put a $15 QO200TR A/C disconnect out there, but they have only a grounding bar.

I use a wirenut or split-bolt.

 

[M. D.]

I have used one of these ,.. worked great.

 

[troa303]

My boss used BALBOA 50 AMP GFCI DISCONNECT about a month ago. Sorry, I can't find a better picture. I wish I took a picture now that I think about it. lol.

 

[brantmacga]

I have used one of these ,.. worked great.

I have never seen that.



But it looks brilliant.

Who makes it, what does it cost, where do I get it?
_________________


edit:


Question; how is it reading line-to-line ground faults?

 

[Minuteman]

I install 2 or 3 Hot Springs Portable Spas a month. They provide me a small sub panel with a 2 pole 20-amp and 30-amp breakers.

There is room in the panel for another single breaker for an outlet.

From the sub panel to the tub I install 12's and 10's, usually in liquid tight.

 

[1793]

Yeah, that's it. :grin:

I use a wirenut or split-bolt.

So I take it that you are saying if you install a disconnect, pull out or such, you just wirenut or split-bolt the neutral and use the ground bar for the EGC's?

 

[goldstar]

I have used one of these ,.. worked great.

I've used these also and yes, they do work fine. However, several things I'd like to point out about this unit :1) The relay inside stays energized with power on and has a tendency to hum (sometimes rather loudly). If it's located properly (within sight of the tub) it tends to become annoying. 2) That's not a normal faceless GFI you see there. If you have to replace a defective one, pull out the device first and bring it to the supply house with you so they can order the right one. It's made by Leviton and has a CT ring on the back of it where the #6 ungrounded conductors pass through it. Rather expensive, from what I remember but don't recall how much.

With respect to the OP and as others have mentioned as long as the circuit is GFI protected you're OK. However IMHO if you don't locate the GFI protection outside and within sight of the tub you're doing a diservice to your customer. While you would be within the code guidelines, if the GFI happened to trip a person using the tub would have to get out of the tub (wet) and go inside to wherever the GFI is located to reset it. Just a personal preference of mine.:smile:

 

[M. D.]

I install 2 or 3 Hot Springs Portable Spas a month. They provide me a small sub panel with a 2 pole 20-amp and 30-amp breakers.

There is room in the panel for another single breaker for an outlet.

From the sub panel to the tub I install 12's and 10's, usually in liquid tight.

The big difference is that the one I posted is a listed disconnect and this is a panel making the use of NM-b a violation of 680.25..

 

[LarryFine]

So I take it that you are saying if you install a disconnect, pull out or such, you just wirenut or split-bolt the neutral and use the ground bar for the EGC's?

I am.

 

[LarryFine]

It's made by Leviton and has a CT ring on the back of it where the #6 ungrounded conductors pass through it.

The neutral, too.

 

[goldstar]

The neutral, too.

From what I remember, yes. Seemed weird to me. But, then again, it was so long ago and I can't remember what I had for dinner last night.:roll: