Hot tub disconnect

[LawnGuyLandSparky]

...
With respect to the OP and as others have mentioned as long as the circuit is GFI protected you're OK. However IMHO if you don't locate the GFI protection outside and within sight of the tub you're doing a diservice to your customer. While you would be within the code guidelines, if the GFI happened to trip a person using the tub would have to get out of the tub (wet) and go inside to wherever the GFI is located to reset it. Just a personal preference of mine.:smile:

I would suggest that should the GFCI trip, the user should exit the tub and NOT reset it and get back in until the cause was found. So they're going back into the house anyway.

 

[goldstar]

I would suggest that should the GFCI trip, the user should exit the tub and NOT reset it and get back in until the cause was found. So they're going back into the house anyway.

Sorry, I suppose you're right but that reason was the first that came to mind. However, there could be numerous other reasons for locating the GFI disconnect outside. One thing that comes to mind is servicing the tub or testing the GFI. If the GFI is inside the house the HO must me home to allow you in to reset and there could be any number of reasons why they wouldn't want a service person or someone wet from the tub to enter the house. I just think it's more convenient to have the GFI disconnect outside than in.

 

[slick 50]

Thank you all. I love hearing all of you guys opinions because there are many ways to do a job that still complies with NEC/

Thanks again.:smile:

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

Think of it this way, would you want your kitchen counter receptacle to be on a gfi breaker that is located in the basement,garage ,or outside ? Rather difficult to deal with untill problem is located. While legal we must think of the use. Put it where it can be reset easy.

 

[M. D.]

I install 2 or 3 Hot Springs Portable Spas a month. They provide me a small sub panel with a 2 pole 20-amp and 30-amp breakers.

There is room in the panel for another single breaker for an outlet.

From the sub panel to the tub I install 12's and 10's, usually in liquid tight.

Am I the only one who sees the use of the NM-b in the photo as a violation,.. that would be a feeder,.wouldn't it?

 

[iwire]

Am I the only one who sees the use of the NM-b in the photo as a violation,.. that would be a feeder,.wouldn't it?

I was under the impression you could use NM as the feeder until you got outside. Should it be boxed just inside the home to prevent the last 10" from being outside ....... maybe but then we are back to saying every millions of installations are non-compliant like all the areas that place dwelling unit panels outside the home.

 

[Minuteman]

I understand that it is like a feeder to another load center. Then there is a Raceway installed between it and the Portable Spa. Never had a problem with compliance.

 

[Brian Oshman]

I don't prefer this design and find it a liability. There is nothing stopping the contactor from failing and locking closed or the contacts welding together. It is not an overcurrent device and may not disconnect like a breaker would as they are designed to mechanically disengage with more abrupt internal force to ensure contact separation. The deadface GFI can trip but the contactor can still stay closed and the tub energized, and the pullout for a tub is also cheesy.

I have found that tub manufacturers recommend that the GFI is mounted no further than 30 feet from the tub to insure proper sensitivity. I use a small load center as the disconnect means in sight of the tub with the GFI in there and a standard breaker in the panel. It makes servicing and troubleshooting easier as you don't have to go inside to reset the GFI.

Most tubs I have found use the neutral as the controls and circ pumps are 120VAC but the main pumps and heater are 240VAC. Most all GFI 50 amp two pole breakers have the neutral output but most all GFI 60 amp two pole breakers do not have the neutral output and probably the reason for this questionable contraption.

I would not use one of these.

 

[iwire]

I don't prefer this design and find it a liability. There is nothing stopping the contactor from failing and locking closed or the contacts welding together.

It is an accepted design, millions of machines and motors rely on contacts to open when an E-stop is pressed. Personally I think an electrically held contator is a very good choice.

It is not an over current device and may not disconnect like a breaker would as they are designed to mechanically disengage with more abrupt internal force to ensure contact separation.

I am not following you, are you saying a GFCI breaker will more reliably open then the pictured set up?

What do you base that on, I would have to see some sort of testing that supports that.

The deadface GFI can trip but the contactor can still stay closed and the tub energized,

That can happen with any GFCI device, the GFCI electronics could send a trip signal but the electrically held relay inside the GFCI device may not open.

and the pullout for a tub is also cheesy.

Well you got me there, I agree while that is a highly reliable design I dislike having loose parts to get lost.

I have found that tub manufacturers recommend that the GFI is mounted no further than 30 feet from the tub to insure proper sensitivity.

There is no 'loss of sensitivity' of a GFCI no mater how far long the circuit is. Actually due to capacitance coupling the GFCI becomes more likely to trip.

I would not use one of these.

I would in a heartbeat, UL listed and designed for the purpose.

 

[M. D.]

I was under the impression you could use NM as the feeder until you got outside. ......

I think it depends if this is a feeder to a panel supplying branch circuits.


http://ecmweb.com/nec/code_qa/code_qa_120408/

Q. We had a new swimming pool installed at our house, and the electricians ran a cable to the pool equipment room panel. Is this legal?


A. No. Feeder conductors to a panelboard for a permanently installed pool must be installed in rigid metal conduit, intermediate metal conduit, liquidtight flexible nonmetallic conduit, or PVC conduit. Electrical metallic tubing is permitted where installed on or within a building, and electrical nonmetallic tubing is permitted where installed within a building [680.25(A)].

 

[Minuteman]

I think it depends if this is a feeder to a panel supplying branch circuits.


http://ecmweb.com/nec/code_qa/code_qa_120408/

Q. We had a new swimming pool installed at our house, and the electricians ran a cable to the pool equipment room panel. Is this legal?


A. No. Feeder conductors to a panelboard for a permanently installed pool must be installed in rigid metal conduit, intermediate metal conduit, liquidtight flexible nonmetallic conduit, or PVC conduit. Electrical metallic tubing is permitted where installed on or within a building, and electrical nonmetallic tubing is permitted where installed within a building [680.25(A)].

Maybe because this is a portable tub, maybe because I'm in a Red State, maybe because I went to the Peter D school of Hacktrician. :grin:

 

[iwire]

I see your point M.D. :smile:


Minuteman ......... I hope Peter did not charge to much for his classes. :grin:

 

[M. D.]

I see your point M.D. :smile:


Minuteman ......... I hope Peter did not charge to much for his classes. :grin:

So is it a feeder to a panelboard under 680.25??

 

[Minuteman]

680.40 & 680.42(c)

 

[M. D.]

680.42.(C) Interior Wiring to Outdoor Installations In the interior of a one-family dwelling or in the interior of another building or structure associated with a one-family dwelling, any of the wiring methods recognized in Chapter 3 of this Code that contain a copper equipment grounding conductor that is insulated or enclosed within the outer sheath of the wiring method and not smaller than 12 AWG shall be permitted to be used for the connection to motor, heating, and control loads that are part of a self-contained spa or hot tub or a packaged spa or hot tub equipment assembly. Wiring to an underwater light shall comply with 680.23 or 680.33.

Are you saying the panel is part of a self contained hot tub??

 

[Minuteman]

Are you saying the panel is part of a self contained hot tub??

I would say yes, as it's suppled to me by the tub manufacture, for that tub. The Heater requires 30 amp, the pump 20. The panel has a 2P30 and a 2P20 factory installed. The panel has a label on it saying Spa Equipment Disconnect.

 

[Minuteman]

I see your point M.D. :smile:


Minuteman ......... I hope Peter did not charge to much for his classes. :grin:

It's Continuing Uneducation. :grin:

 

[M. D.]

I would say yes, as it's suppled to me by the tub manufacture, for that tub. The Heater requires 30 amp, the pump 20. The panel has a 2P30 and a 2P20 factory installed. The panel has a label on it saying Spa Equipment Disconnect.

This is why I asked ,... that disconnect is part of the listed hot tub equipment assembly and IMO that makes all the difference .

 

[Minuteman]

This is why I asked ,... that disconnect is part of the listed hot tub equipment assembly and IMO that makes all the difference .

Phew, had me going there. I thought I was WORSE than a hack. :grin:

The one in the pic is a GE. The ones I have been getting lately are Cutler Hammer CH. Same exact label, but I'm not much of a CH fan.