Looking for comments on my latest loadcenter install

[drive1968]

I recently did a complete rewire for a 1960's home that had aluminum wiring and no ground wires. Luckily the house was originally done with Greenfield, so I could fish through new wires without too much trouble. The house is a five bedroom with a gym and the homeowner wanted things brought up to the most recent standards whereever possible. I'm on 2005 NEC. I ran new dedicated circuits for each of the bathrooms, a treadmill, and the office computer. The loadcenter is a Homeline 30/40 panel. I decided to use some tandem breakers to leave some extra spaces for future use.

On top of AFCI breakers for the bedrooms, the owner wanted AFCI for the living, family, and dining rooms. They also wanted GFCI breaker for the pool pumps and heater.

As a side note, the lady of the house had me replace the AFCI breaker for the dining room yesterday because the fondue pot kept tripping the breaker. I was surprised the pot caused a problem because it isn't a motor or anything like that and it only draws 5 amps. But I replaced the AFCI with a standard breaker for her. Other than that, no problems with the AFCI's.

The homeowners decided to wait to upgrade their service main, which is the original and feeds the new loadcenter with fused 100 amps. I fed the new loadcenter with #3 wire for the hots and neutral and used #4 for the ground. The inspector signed off on it yesterday, but I'm sure you all can find something I could have done better. Thanks.

 

[480sparky]

110.26(A)(3) comes to mind right away.

I also have never understood the concept of 20- and 30 space panels with tandems.

 

[TOOL_5150]

110.26(A)(3) comes to mind right away.

I also have never understood the concept of 20- and 30 space panels with tandems.

What do you mean about the tandems? if its a 30/40 then what else are you going to do?

~Matt

 

[guschash]

480 Why do says 110.26(A)(3)? It looks like alot of room above that panel. What am I missing that you see?

 

[augie47]

I also have never understood the concept of 20- and 30 space panels with tandems.

Never been a real fan of theise either.
Form the picture I can't tell, but what is the maximum number of conductors per raceway ?

 

[drive1968]

Thanks for the comments. I also was concerned about the space above the panel. The shelf above is 91" high and I was taught that there should be an arm's length reach above and around. The inspector and I couldn't reach the shelf. Maybe that isn't exact science. I guess next time I run into this type of situation just to be on the safe side, I'll remove the shelf.

The reason I used a 30/40 panel with tandems instead of a full size 40 space panel was mostly because of the height consideration. The Square D 40 space panel is 6 inches taller than the 30/40 and I was already concerned about working height, so I chose a more compact panel.

Regarding conduit fill, the tightest fit I had was seven #12 wires in a 1/2 Greenfield for a three circuit run. I also had two #6 and a #10 ground running through a 3/4 Greenfield.

Thanks.

 

[Pierre C Belarge]

As per 110.26(E), the minimum height is 6ft-6in. The door bucks are generally 6ft-8in. The picture looks as though the height of the shelf is identical or close to the door buck height.

It is always difficult to be sure, but one of the conductors terminated to a breaker in the top left looks as though there is enough exposed copper as to possibly touch the neutral bar behind it.

 

[drive1968]

Pierre, here is a closer picture I took. I think the previous picture had some glare from the camera flash that made it look like the red insulation was bare copper.

The height of the shelf is 7ft-7in and the door hits the shelf when opened. The height is deceptive because the foundation sticks up about a foot and the door sits on top of that.

 

[billsnuff]

Pierre,

I think he fixed it and took another pic.......

 

[charlie b]

You don't have a problem with head room. But you might, arguably, have a problem with dedicated space. In this installation, you can stand within the working space and have 6'6" of headroom. So you meet 110.26(A)(3).

But I can't quite tell from the photo whether the space above the panel itself is clear for a distance of 6 feet above the top of the panel. 110.26(F) says this area cannot have any "piping, ducts, leak protection apparatus, or other equipment foreign to the electrical installation." So the question is, does a shelf count as "foreign equipment"? Is it "equipment" at all? If the panel is, as it appears to be, fully recessed into the wall, and if the shelving support system does not extend into the wall, so that the space above the panel is indeed clear, then I would say that this install is OK.

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

Is it just me or does the afc breaker on left 4th down look like screw is overheated ?

Not what i would call neat looking panel but we do not know conditions you rewired this place under. If you had to do 1 circuit at time i understand it being hard to look great.
Am curious as to why greenfield and then got cheap and used aluminum wire.
Also not much into a 30/40 panel. With afci now using up so much space your selling yourself short. Your panel could have been lower and used full 40.
While its great they upgraded but they been better off changing service and have a better resale value.

 

[480sparky]

..............The reason I used a 30/40 panel with tandems instead of a full size 40 space panel was mostly because of the height consideration. The Square D 40 space panel is 6 inches taller than the 30/40 and I was already concerned about working height, so I chose a more compact panel..........

There is only a maximum height listed in the NEC for OCD. There is no minimum. So a panel could reach to the floor and be legal. So A 40-space panel wouldn't be 6" taller, it would simply be 6" lower at the bottom.

Tandems=piggyback=half size=1/2"=cheaters. The problem I have with them is the cost. They provide no more protection than a standard 1" QOH breaker.

 

[drive1968]

The screw on the 4th GFCI breaker on the left does have a different color. More brassy colored than most of the rest. Though it's the same color as the GFCI on the top right and the same as the three standard breakers on the top left. I think Square D must have been using different lots of screws. When I look closely, there doesn't seem to be anything unusual other than the slight difference in color. There's no extra heat when I checked it out.

I get the point you guys make about just getting a full 40 space panel and just setting it lower. I'll think more about that next time.

Regarding how neat the wires are, I have a hard time getting stranded #12 wires to look better. I used as much solid wire as I could, but with some of the pulls I had to make, stranded pulled without as much strain. The AFCI breakers also made it tougher to make things look more organized with the extra pigtail and the huge size of the breakers.

 

[cycotcskir]

110.26(F) says this area cannot have any "piping, ducts, leak protection apparatus, or other equipment foreign to the electrical installation." So the question is, does a shelf count as "foreign equipment"? Is it "equipment" at all? If the panel is, as it appears to be, fully recessed into the wall, and if the shelving support system does not extend into the wall, so that the space above the panel is indeed clear, then I would say that this install is OK.

I think that I would have to disagree with this logic. The sentence prior to the "piping, ducts..." says "shall be dedicated to the electrical installation" (A shelf isn't part of the electrical installation), then the exception specifically allows a drop ceiling.

Is a drop ceiling equipment? I don't think so. The definition of equipment in the NEC is directly related to an electrical installation, but since we are discussing foreign equipment, it cannot apply. In fact, even if it did apply, it refers to materials related to electrical. If we replace the word electrical with any other word, (architectural, plumbing, HVAC) then we would still end up with materials related to (insert here) being defined as equipment and not allowed.

It seems to me that the statements regarding piping, ducts, etc. serve to enhance the prior sentence, not limit it.

Considering only the sentence that I quoted, and the one that you quoted, then I agree that there is room for debate. However, with the inclusion of the exception into the code, I suggest that that proves my point.

 

[charlie b]

I think that I would have to disagree with this logic. The sentence prior to the "piping, ducts..." says "shall be dedicated to the electrical installation" (A shelf isn't part of the electrical installation), then the exception specifically allows a drop ceiling.

I don't think you are disagreeing with me! :grin: Look again. If the panel were to be surface mounted, and I don't think this one is, then I would not allow the shelf to be installed above it.

The "dedicated space" is the space above the panel itself. It does not include the space above the "working space." If the panel is fully recessed into a wall, as it appears to be here (though I can't tell for sure from the photo), then the "dedicated space" is inside the wall. So as long as the shelf does not have any support components that penetrate into the wall (other than, perhaps a nail or screw or two), then it does not infringe upon the "dedicated space."

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

next time buy a bag of them self sticking square plastic blocks and plastic tie wraps, they will help with stranded and turn out a neat job. Somebody probably has the link or picture of them.
I know time is tighter on residential,on commercial i dont care if it takes all day my panel will look great. Inspectors see quality there then they start trusting the rest of job.

 

[George Stolz]

...i dont care if it takes all day my panel will look great.

I would care. I like Ben Franklin's take on efficiency:

Temperance: Eat not to dullness; drink not to elevation.
Order: Let all your things have their places; let each part of your business have its time.
Resolution: Resolve to perform what you ought; perform without fail what you resolve.
Frugality: Make no expense but to do good to others or yourself; i.e., waste nothing.
Moderation: Avoid extremes; forbear resenting injuries so much as you think they deserve.
Industry: Lose no time; be always employed in something useful; cut off all unnecessary actions.
Cleanliness: Tolerate no uncleanliness in body, clothes, or habitation.
Tranquility: Be not disturbed at trifles, or at accidents common or unavoidable.​

 

[PCN]

Thanks for the comments. I also was concerned about the space above the panel. The shelf above is 91" high and I was taught that there should be an arm's length reach above and around. Thanks.

What if one has very short arms? :grin:

 

[brentp]

Your install looks fine. If you were to cable tie all the wires tight and straight, you would start a bundling argument.

Brent

 

[LarryFine]

I would care. I like Ben Franklin's take on efficiency:

Torfmict? :-?