Shocked today

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Minuteman

Minuteman

Senior Member
Location
The Sooner Nation
I was called to replace some outlets for a new counter top back splash in a Church kitchen. Panel is a QO, 240v delta, located in the kitchen. The only label was for the 3 pole A/C and the 2 pole WH.

Using my circuit tracer, I plugged into the top of the first duplex and found the circuit to be #24. As I removed the 15a duplex, I saw that there was 2 blue conductors on the hot side and only 1 white on the neutral side. About that time I touched the lower hot screw with my index finger, while I had my left hand on the stainless steel sink.

Turns out, that the breakout tab was removed from the hot side, and that #12 was connected to it. (Both on C phase). Come to find out, all 3 duplexes on that counter were that way. The first was #12/24, the second was #8/14, and the third was #13/20. :-?

I have since cutaway enough of the Formica to remove the single gang plaster rings and replased them with two gang. After the new back splash is installed, I will install two 20a GFCI outlets in each box. I have moved around the conductors so that they will be now be grouped as #8/12, #14/18, and # 20/24.
 
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hillbilly1

Senior Member
Location
North Georgia mountains
Occupation
Owner/electrical contractor
No handle tie for both circuits feeding two receptacles on same yoke, another violation. (have seen handle ties that could do this, but seperate neutrals would have be installed to make the two "C" phases code compliant and both "C" phases would have to be on same side within reach of the handle tie.)
 
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roger

roger

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Staff member
Location
Fl
Occupation
Retired Electrician
hillbilly1 said:
I think the handle tie requirement has been around a long time, at least as long as I can remember, but then my memory is not as good as it used to be.:smile:
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480sparky said:
Only if installed according to the '08 or '05. Prior to that, it was perfectly legal to scatter MWBCs all over the panel in a church.
Click to expand...

Hillbilly1 is right, it has been a requirement to tie handles together for many cycles when devices on a single yoke are fed with a MWBC.

Roger
 
480sparky

480sparky

Senior Member
Location
Iowegia
roger said:
Hillbilly1 is right, it has been a requirement to tie handles together for many cycles when devices on a single yoke are fed with a MWBC.

Roger
Click to expand...

Only in dwellings. Up through the '02 at least. Then the '05 dropped the dwelling-only requirement. It was first introduced in the '81.
 
roger

roger

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Staff member
Location
Fl
Occupation
Retired Electrician
480sparky said:
Only in dwellings. Up through the '02 at least. Then the '05 dropped the dwelling-only requirement. It was first introduced in the '81.
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Agreed, for some reason I ignored the reference to "Church" when I saw "kitchen".

Roger
 
Minuteman

Minuteman

Senior Member
Location
The Sooner Nation
Minuteman said:
I was called to replace some outlets for a new counter top back splash in a Church kitchen. Panel is a QO, 240v delta, located in the kitchen. The only label was for the 3 pole A/C and the 2 pole WH.

Using my circuit tracer, I plugged into the top of the first duplex and found the circuit to be #24. As I removed the 15a duplex, I saw that there was 2 blue conductors on the hot side and only 1 white on the neutral side. About that time I touched the lower hot screw with my index finger, while I had my left hand on the stainless steel sink.

Turns out, that the breakout tab was removed from the hot side, and that #12 was connected to it. (Both on C phase). Come to find out, all 3 duplexes on that counter were that way. The first was #12/24, the second was #8/14, and the third was #13/20. :-?

I have since cutaway enough of the Formica to remove the single gang plaster rings and replased them with two gang. After the new back splash is installed, I will install two 20a GFCI outlets in each box. I have moved around the conductors so that they will be now be grouped as #8/12, #14/18, and # 20/24.
Click to expand...

For those who are counting the violations, how about the fact that each half the 15a duplex was wired to two 20a breakers?
 
C

Cow

Senior Member
Location
Eastern Oregon
Occupation
Electrician
Minuteman said:
For those who are counting the violations, how about the fact that each half the 15a duplex was wired to two 20a breakers?
Click to expand...

After the installer put them all on the same phase, he probably figured thats just a little violation nobody will notice.
 
480sparky

480sparky

Senior Member
Location
Iowegia
Cow said:
After the installer put them all on the same phase, he probably figured thats just a little violation nobody will notice.
Click to expand...

Being a delta service, he probably put half of the circuits on the B phase, then realized this mistake after using up all the smoke in the coffee makers.
extinguish.gif
 
quogueelectric

quogueelectric

Senior Member
Location
new york
I am glad you are alright I had 2 close electrocutions at work in the last couple of weeks. One of my coworkers was hung up on 277 on the damp ground squirming like a snake on a barbeque grill. Dont even try to convince him that the ground is a poor conductor. Luckily his partner knocked him off the circuit on his second attempt.
 
Minuteman

Minuteman

Senior Member
Location
The Sooner Nation
480sparky said:
I didn't catch it because you didn't mention the OCD in your OP. Only #12 wire.
Click to expand...

You're right, I didn't mention it, thought that I did.

Among the only code that was not violated was the local code regarding 20a OCP and #12. You have to drive out of town to see a 15a on a #14. It's been that way around here for the 30 years that I have been here. Only the REAL old stuff has #14.
 
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