Need for Ground Conductor Meter Socket to Main Panel

[DavisIMI]

alright don, answer this; If there was a panel and this panel had a branch crkt ran in pvc or cable, and there was a fault to ground what path would this fault take? If there was a panel and this panel fed another panel and it was ran in metal conuit and this conduit had a higher resistance than the egc which path do you think the fault will take?

Is the requirements for moderator at this site have to do with how many post you have, not your knowlegde of electricity? Gezzz!!

 

[iwire]

Is the requirements for moderator at this site have to do with how many post you have, not your knowledge of electricity? Gezzz!!

Thats just funny. :grin:

Roger had pointed out that grounding (the connection to earth) has nothing to do with the fault clearing path.

He is correct.

 

[DavisIMI]

Maybe this is a easier question for you 3to understand.

There is this house and at this house there is this meter base. The bonding of the neutral conductor to groun SE cable to the panel inided the house. If and when there is a ground fault in this house, how will this fault be cleared?

Please try to answer the questions, its the only way to disprove your ignorance.

 

[DavisIMI]

I said nothing about the conection to earth, we were debateing the path that a ground fault takes. Read the xxxxxx thread. And dont try to turn it around to say thats what I meant.

 

[iwire]

Maybe this is a easier question for you 3to understand.

There is this house and at this house there is this meter base. The bonding of the neutral conductor to groun SE cable to the panel inided the house. If and when there is a ground fault in this house, how will this fault be cleared?

Please try to answer the questions, its the only way to disprove your ignorance.

I have to tell you know we do not allow flaming on this site at all. So lighten up on the insults.

Your more then free to disagree with anyone on this forum but do so without personal attacks.

Now for your question, tell us more about the ground fault, where is it located? Is it a short to the EGC or a short to say a water line?

Lets say its a short from the ungrounded conductor to the grounding conductor at one of the kitchen counter receptacles in a home.

In this case the fault path is from the ungrounded conductor to the grounding conductor back to the main panel through the bonding screw and back to the source via the grounded conductor.

The earth does not enter into the picture.

 

[DavisIMI]

This is unbelieveable.....I was answering post. So go ahead and shut this post down, thats what your leading to, so no one will see whats happened here. You guys remind me of alot of religous people around here I know, when I got saved the first thing I did was read the bible, then I studyed it every night for months. I found out that alot of these so called religous people dont read their books either. Im done, got a date.

 

[iwire]

This is unbelieveable.....I was answering post. So go ahead and shut this post down, thats what your leading to, so no one will see whats happened here.

Not planing on shutting it down, but we will edit anyones post that is making personal attacks instead of sticking on the subject.

You guys remind me of alot of religous people around here I know, when I got saved the first thing I did was read the bible, then I studyed it every night for months. I found out that alot of these so called religous people dont read their books either.

You are really sticking your foot in your mouth but you are more then free to do so. :smile:

 

[roger]

DavisIMI, as Bob said, we will not shut this thread down simply because you are confused and abusive however, as he also pointed out we will edit your posts if they are out of line.

Now, if you will listen, we have tried to point out your mis-beliefs and are not trying to do it for any other reason but to point out truths.

Roger

 

[infinity]

It seems like this thread has taken the low road. The OP asked a simple question,

"What do you guys think of this? I know that the conduit is an acceptable means for equipment grounding, so I think that this is OK".

This thread could have ended with a one word answer, that answer is yes. The NEC permits this, scenarios about loose this and that aren't relevant to the question. Loose connections could happen to EGC's, locknuts or any other part of the installation.

 

[charlie]

Good response Rob and accurate too.

 

[DavisIMI]

Grounding would not be a part of a low impedance Effective Ground-Fault Current Path.

This whole thing got started over this comment by a Mod.
I have given seval exampals where it does, never did I say anything about a grounding system and Ground faults being the same.
Not one of the 4-5 moderators who have been saying that I am so wrong with anything I've said has given one speck of evidencae or even attemped to answer one single question I have given them to prove me wrong.
All I have seen is a bunch up buddies trying to take up for one another when their in over their heads.
People are right with what they say about this forum, the only reason I even did belong to this forum is because there are some very smart engineers that post here. I've never seen a post that everone was accusing someone for being wrong but never attemped to back it up.

 

[charlie]

This whole thing got started over this comment by a Mod.
I have given several examples where it does, never did I say anything about a grounding system and Ground faults being the same.
Not one of the 4-5 moderators who have been saying that I am so wrong with anything I've said has given one speck of evidence or even attempted to answer one single question I have given them to prove me wrong.
All I have seen is a bunch up buddies trying to take up for one another when their in over their heads.
People are right with what they say about this forum, the only reason I even did belong to this forum is because there are some very smart engineers that post here. I've never seen a post that everyone was accusing someone for being wrong but never attempted to back it up.

The quote you give is from roger and his statement is correct. Grounding is not really part of the current return path until the voltage is around the 15 kV class or higher.

I have tried to catch up on this thread and find it difficult since everyone understands the basics but is having problems with the semantics. Basically, if the installation is done mechanically correct, there is no need to go above the code requirements. If you do exceed the minimum requirements, GREAT! The question then becomes, is your customer willing to pay for a 'better' system or are they on a limited budget? Do you have to bid the job or is it T&M? If it is the former, can you afford to install more than the minimum?

I hope this thread has not left a bad taste in everyone's mouth. We should be able to discuss these subjects without getting upset with each other. I don't know about everyone else but I am here to enjoy myself by discussing a subject that I love.

 

[iwire]

This whole thing got started over this comment by a Mod.
I have given seval exampals where it does, never did I say anything about a grounding system and Ground faults being the same.
Not one of the 4-5 moderators who have been saying that I am so wrong with anything I've said has given one speck of evidencae or even attemped to answer one single question I have given them to prove me wrong.
All I have seen is a bunch up buddies trying to take up for one another when their in over their heads.
People are right with what they say about this forum, the only reason I even did belong to this forum is because there are some very smart engineers that post here. I've never seen a post that everone was accusing someone for being wrong but never attemped to back it up.

Dave, you asked a question about a ground fault path, I made a sincere effort in post 25 to answer it with my view.

But you seem more interested in complaining and insulting then talking about the subject.

 

[ibew501ed]

WOW I'm exhausted
Dave was so mad he stopped hitting ALL the keys when typing
PS I agree completely with the moderators
and Soares is a good book

 

[roger]

Dave, the problem I see is you are not listening to others, and we are not taking up for one another, we are pointing out facts.

Do you really think earth plays a role in clearing a fault at the voltages we are discussing in this thread?

Maybe a couple of pictures will help you see the difference in "Grounding" and "Bonding" and what their individual purposes are.

First let's look at "Grounding" and why we do it.

In the next illustration you will also see that a connection to the earth can actually be dangerous if it is expected to clear a fault.

Now we will look at "Bonding" which creates the "Low Impedance Path" back to the Supply Source and this bonding does not need a connection to earth to open OCPD's

So, when I said "Grounding would not be a part of a low impedance Effective Ground-Fault Current Path" I meant it, and it is a correct statement

I hope this helps you with this subject and what we are trying to tell you.


Roger

 

[jcole]

Some people have a hard time being wrong. I work with a few and man what a pleasure they are to work with. NOT!!!!!!!!!

Great job moderators. You handled this well.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Davis, it is a pity that you see the mods as a bunch of buddies sticking up for each other rather than a bunch of pretty darn smart dudes who have been around the block quite a few times. If you go back and read this thread from start to finish you may see, as I did, that the abusive comments all came from you at the start.

There was no need for this. I have seen many moderators debate each other over issues that they don't agree on. Does that make them enemies? No, just people with a difference of opinions. I am surprised they did not delete your posts that were abusive. They gave you far more leeway than others may have gotten.

You mentioned you came to this site because of the great engineers and intelligent people here but yet it seems you are unwilling to learn or discuss the issue at hand without getting confrontational.

I will not take sides, enough has been side on this issue.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

alright don, answer this; If there was a panel and this panel had a branch crkt ran in pvc or cable, and there was a fault to ground what path would this fault take? If there was a panel and this panel fed another panel and it was ran in metal conuit and this conduit had a higher resistance than the egc which path do you think the fault will take?

As in all circuits the current flows on ALL available paths in inverse proportion to the impedance of the paths. If the path has enough impedance to limit the fault current to a level below the trip point of the OCPD, which is almost always the case where grounding is used in place of the code required EGC, the hazard will remain and the OCPD will not act to clear the fault. As far as the conduit with an internal EGC, if the conduit is correctly installed only a small portion of the fault current will flow on the EGC, most of it will flow on the conduit.

Is the requirements for moderator at this site have to do with how many post you have, not your knowlegde of electricity? Gezzz!!

I will put my knowledge of system grounding rules and applications up against most anyone on this site. And the selection of moderators has little to do with the persons post count.

 

[guitarsarge]

Too bad this got so personal, I learned something new from it anyways

 

[boboelectric]

Why would anyone install a 100 amp service nowadays?