Grounding wire to can

[transman2]

Is it leagal to run the grounding wire from the ground rod to the panel can inside but not to the ground bar kit, via a lug to the can. The reason I ask is there is no lug large enough to accomadate the larger grounding wire. So won't it be the same being the grounding kit is screwed to the panel can. So therefore there bonded thru the machine screws and the can. Can't find it in the code where it's illegal by code. Thanks for your help.

 

[radiopet]

Give 250.24 a look see.

250.24 Grounding Service-Supplied Alternating-Current
Systems.
(A) System Grounding Connections. A premises wiring
system supplied by a grounded ac service shall have a
grounding electrode conductor connected to the grounded
service conductor, at each service, in accordance with
250.24(A)(1) through (A)(5).

Hope it is helpful.

This is of course not the case if your grounding electode is lets say a water pipe and you are supplimenting it with the ground rods as required by 250.53(D)(2). But then again you only asked about ground rods so we will assume thats all that are present.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Is it leagal to run the grounding wire from the ground rod to the panel can inside but not to the ground bar kit, via a lug to the can. The reason I ask is there is no lug large enough to accomadate the larger grounding wire. So won't it be the same being the grounding kit is screwed to the panel can. So therefore there bonded thru the machine screws and the can. Can't find it in the code where it's illegal by code. Thanks for your help.

Your grounding electrode should be connected to the main service , usually the meter or the main service disconnect panel. Some POCO's will not allow you to install the GEC in their meter so the main panel is the other option. How big is your GEC?

 

[ceb58]

Is it leagal to run the grounding wire from the ground rod to the panel can inside but not to the ground bar kit, via a lug to the can. The reason I ask is there is no lug large enough to accomadate the larger grounding wire. So won't it be the same being the grounding kit is screwed to the panel can. So therefore there bonded thru the machine screws and the can. Can't find it in the code where it's illegal by code. Thanks for your help.

Why not add a lug to the bar, such as a finger lug?

 

[radiopet]

Your grounding electrode should be connected to the main service , usually the meter or the main service disconnect panel. Some POCO's will not allow you to install the GEC in their meter so the main panel is the other option. How big is your GEC?

Remember it can be connected at any location ahead of the service disconnection means really.

(1) General. The connection shall be made at any accessible
point from the load end of the service drop or service
lateral to and including the terminal or bus to which the
grounded service conductor is connected at the service disconnecting
means.

I happen to like the meter location but alas many POCO's throw a hissy fit over it and as you have stated the traditional location of this connection would be in the panel enclosure with the Service Disconnect. However, you see many people doing it within a gutter setup as well which is a location ahead of the service disconnection means.

In his case, I agree in that he should just get a lug that is sized properly and fits onto the existing grounded terminal busbar.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Remember it can be connected at any location ahead of the service disconnection means really.

Of course you are correct, I was going with the usual install. I have heard others do it at the weatherhead also.

I was also curious why a #6 would not fit. Most lugs will accept that size in a meter or main panel. I was wondering if the op was using a rather large conductor.

 

[radiopet]

Dennis that is an excellent point......I would think a 6 AWG would have no problem at all fitting. The only FUNNY example I could think of was that all the time when I am doing plan review on electrical systems on engineer submitted drawings I see 3/0CU to ground rods all the time ( and not for engineered reasons...just because they cut and paste alot ) and I approve them knowing they wont find a connector that will handle it on the rod and will result to Cadwelding it. But thats what they called for and so I will accept it as they are the engineer and I am the lonely plan examiner.

So in that case I can see possibly where it might not fit....I dont think this is the case but I thought it was interesting to post about a situation I see alot.

 

[transman2]

I guess I left off some info for you guys. Here it is. This is a large base where there is a main substation which has its first means of disconnect where the ground and neutral are tied together. From there it feeds a 3 phase 5 wire system to a sub- distrubution board outside with a main and sub-mains that feeds several building. Each building has 5 wires going to a panel inside. Each building has a ground rod which has a wire going from a stud/bolt inside panel to the ground rod. The neutral is seperated of course. The contractor wired all panels with the grounding electrode wire mounted securely to a stud inside the panel and not to the ground bar. So even through they are connected via machine screws that hold the ground bar and the stud that is mounted to can isn't this the same thing as mounted it to the ground bar. I hope this helps with more detail for you or maybe I've screwed this up explaining it.

 

[transman2]

I guess I left off some info for you guys. Here it is. This is a large base where there is a main substation which has its first means of disconnect where the ground and neutral are tied together. From there it feeds a 3 phase 5 wire system to a sub- distrubution board outside with a main and sub-mains that feeds several building. Each building has 5 wires going to a panel inside. Each building has a ground rod which has a wire going from a stud/bolt inside panel to the ground rod. The neutral is seperated of course. The contractor wired all panels with the grounding electrode wire mounted securely to a stud inside the panel and not to the ground bar. So even through they are connected via machine screws that hold the ground bar and the stud that is mounted to can isn't this the same thing as mounted it to the ground bar. I hope this helps with more detail for you or maybe I've screwed this up explaining it.

 

[augie47]

With a 5 wire feeder to each building the scenario is a bit different. Now, according to 250.32, your grounding electrode would be connected to your groundING conductor. Connecting to the ground bar would be to Code. IMHO, I wouldn't be too upset with your siutuation.

 

[radiopet]

215.6 Feeder Equipment Grounding Conductor. Where
a feeder supplies branch circuits in which equipment
grounding conductors are required, the feeder shall include
or provide an equipment grounding conductor in accordance
with the provisions of 250.134, to which the equipment
grounding conductors of the branch circuits shall be
connected. Where the feeder supplies a separate building or
structure, the requirements of 250.32(B) shall apply.

250.32(B) Grounded Systems. For a grounded system at the
separate building or structure, an equipment grounding conductor
as described in 250.118 shall be run with the supply
conductors and be connected to the building or structure
disconnecting means and to the grounding electrode(s). The
equipment grounding conductor shall be used for grounding
or bonding of equipment, structures, or frames required
to be grounded or bonded. The equipment grounding
conductor shall be sized in accordance with 250.122.
Any installed grounded conductor shall not be connected
to the equipment grounding conductor or to the grounding
electrode(s).

Since you have an EGC run to these locations you are not afforded the exception allowance. Basically, the requirements of the feeder inlay of 215.6 would mean you have to provide it's termination on a bussbar that would allow the branch circuits EGC's to terminate too. This is my opinion and my opinion only...others may not agree.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Let me summarize -- the op has a GEC that is connected to a lug that is bolted to the panel and not to the equipment ground bar. You want to know if the panel can is allowed to be used as continuity to the equipment ground bar. Is this correct?

If yes then I htink it would be in the sense that all the conduit that leaves that panel is picking up the ground thru the can. I am not sure I agree with Paul on this. :smile:

 

[radiopet]

lol.....remove my comments about the EGC...lol....I read the Additional information the OP provided.

 

[radiopet]

Each building has a ground rod which has a wire going from a stud/bolt inside panel to the ground rod. The neutral is seperated of course. The contractor wired all panels with the grounding electrode wire mounted securely to a stud inside the panel and not to the ground bar. So even through they are connected via machine screws that hold the ground bar and the stud that is mounted to can isn't this the same thing as mounted it to the ground bar. I hope this helps with more detail for you or maybe I've screwed this up explaining it.

I posted it again as I was getting off track...lol..but I wanted to post that image of what I was talking about in regards to the EGC for the feeder..just for the FUN of it.

Ok, after again Re-Reading what the OP is asking on the second end of that question I would not have a problem with the application under those NEWLY posted conditions...lol....ignore post 11....not sure why I rambled down that path...lol..While the application of post 11 is very true, you did not ask about that requirement so I went a little more into detail than needed. Typical for me.

 

[nakulak]

jmo, but I think the worst case scenario is just to make him put a jumper from the egc to the gec, although I agree best practice would have been landing on the ground bar (although I can't say I haven't done the exact same thing that was done here a couple times for one reason or another)

 

[hurk27]

I have seen many times a GEC at an out building just bonded to the RMC holding the feeders into the panel, I believe this is also compliant, but in a case like this I would also install a bonding bushing or bonding locknut on this pipe. of course the latter is my opinion.:grin: