Arc Fault breakers - Remodel and renovation projects

[mandolin47]

Arc Fault Breakers - Remodel and renovation projects

Our Chief and assistant chief electrical inspector for the State of Michigan are interpreting the 2005 NEC as to requiring arc fault breakers for bedroom circuits when remodelling is done although new circuits have not been installed for the bedrooms.

In a three bedroom rancher a swtich and a light were installed in each bedroom. One bedroom the wall was moved and two receptacles had to be rewired. It is my interpretation of the code that arc fault breakers would not be required since it would be applying the new code to exsiting wiring that had not been changed, just added on to and remodeled.

Am I right or wrong?

 

[electricmanscott]

Arc Fault Breakers - Remodel and renovation projects

Our Chief and assistant chief electrical inspector for the State of Michigan are interpreting the 2005 NEC as to requiring arc fault breakers for bedroom circuits when remodelling is done although new circuits have not been installed for the bedrooms.

In a three bedroom rancher a swtich and a light were installed in each bedroom. One bedroom the wall was moved and two receptacles had to be rewired. It is my interpretation of the code that arc fault breakers would not be required since it would be applying the new code to exsiting wiring that had not been changed, just added on to and remodeled.

Am I right or wrong?

Did you replace a switch and light fixture or did you add a switch and light fixture?

That light "outlet" you installed is required to be AFCI protected.

 

[ivsenroute]

If you added to it then you upgrade to AFCI because you changed the existing by adding to it.

 

[gotmud]

Wow it's amazing how the code gets interpreted different everywhere you go. Here..as long as you use the existing circuit no arc fault is needed. I could add those two recept. and be OK.:grin: What happens if he has a 3-wire circuit in an old house, everythings completely finished in the room where the panel is and can't get to it??? No 2 pole arc faults yet...It has to be common scense to the inspectors....Do I tell the homeowner to tear out ceilings in other rooms because the inspector want's an arc breaker installed??? Come On!!!!

 

[little george]

I too am in the State of Michigan and I don't agree with the call made by our Chief. We all know that the code is not clear on this issue and so I submitted a code change proposal to make it clear by adding the words "or extended" circuits and the panel votes was 9 accepted 2 rejected and 1 abstained. The explanation given for the reject was that it was a judgment call by the inspector if the extended circuit needed AFCI protection. What a crock. The code so many times leaves us with subjective situations and so the inspector is the bad guy. When I quizzed Jim Carpenter on this during an IAEI code panel session, he would not take a stand on whether or not an extended circuit needs AFCI protection. Sorry gang, little venting here but I feel much better now.

 

[mcclary's electrical]

I too am in the State of Michigan and I don't agree with the call made by our Chief. We all know that the code is not clear on this issue and so I submitted a code change proposal to make it clear by adding the words "or extended" circuits and the panel votes was 9 accepted 2 rejected and 1 abstained. The explanation given for the reject was that it was a judgment call by the inspector if the extended circuit needed AFCI protection. What a crock. The code so many times leaves us with subjective situations and so the inspector is the bad guy. When I quizzed Jim Carpenter on this during an IAEI code panel session, he would not take a stand on whether or not an extended circuit needs AFCI protection. Sorry gang, little venting here but I feel much better now.

I think they should be required in your situation. EXAMPLE: What about a 3rd floor attic with stairs,,,,,,,it has a light,,,,,,they convert it to living space,,,,duct work,,,electrical,,,, drwall,,,,now it's a bedroom,,,,,,,,,but wait,,,,all we did was "extend" the circuit,,,,,,I wouldn't fall for that nor do I think the inspectors would. You moved a receptacle,,,,so it now has to be arc faulted.....period. Even if you move it 3',,,,,,,,YOU"RE STILL INSTALLING AN OUTLET IN A BEDROOM.

 

[M. D.]

This guy had a similar question and he submitted a proposal ,...

2-179 Log #4876 NEC-P02 Final Action: Reject
(210.12(B))

_______________________________________________________________

Submitter: David Zinck, Wiring Inspector / Rep. Newburyport, MA

Recommendation: Add two additional sentences.
This requirement shall apply to new dwellings or new branch circuits in
existing dwellings. It shall not apply to modifications to existing circuits in
existing dwellings.

Substantiation: An electrician is call to a small room renovation. The
homeowner has a carpenter remove a short section of wall. They find there is a
wire running through it. The electrician simply has to install a plug on either
side of the opening and run a new wire between the two. Most electricians
could leave the truck running and do this job.
But there is a problem.
The electrician finds that it is a multiwire branch circuit. He would have to
rewire them in order to install an arc-fault circuit breaker. He also finds that the
panel is a ?Push-Matic? (or any other brand no longer made) panel that is flush
mounted in a finish room. Now he has to replace the panel, or install a new
panel, plus rewire the two circuits, just to be able to install arc-fault circuit
breakers.

What is really going to happen is the electrician is not going to pull a
permit or get an inspection and he is going to just install the two plugs. Or the
carpenter is going to do it himself because he never carried the $800 this job
just turned into.
The added wording would eliminate this problem by allowing simple
modifications to be done without requiring the AFCI circuit breakers.

Panel Meeting Action: Reject
Panel Statement: The decision on applying the new construction AFCI
requirements to a circuit modification is that of the authority having
jurisdiction.

Number Eligible to Vote: 12
Ballot Results: Affirmative: 11 Abstain: 1

Explanation of Abstention:

ORLOWSKI, S.: Please see NAHB?s Comment on Proposal 2-152.

​

​

 

[gotmud]

I think they should be required in your situation. EXAMPLE: What about a 3rd floor attic with stairs,,,,,,,it has a light,,,,,,they convert it to living space,,,,duct work,,,electrical,,,, drwall,,,,now it's a bedroom,,,,,,,,,but wait,,,,all we did was "extend" the circuit,,,,,,I wouldn't fall for that nor do I think the inspectors would. You moved a receptacle,,,,so it now has to be arc faulted.....period. Even if you move it 3',,,,,,,,YOU"RE STILL INSTALLING AN OUTLET IN A BEDROOM.

that's a whole different story...that 3rd story room now is considered storage..If he changed it to a bedroom then that falls under "a change in use" then yes it would have to be arc faulted to the current codes. The situation earlier was already a finished bedroom and used an existing bedroom circuit for 2 more recept. for existing bedroom....

 

[mcclary's electrical]

you're still installing an outlet in a bedroom. period.

 

[360Youth]

If a panel is changed, but none of the circuits, are the breakers required to be "upgraded?"

Or if just a breaker?

 

[gotmud]

If a panel is changed, but none of the circuits, are the breakers required to be "upgraded?"

Or if just a breaker?

Nope. Not here anyway, but maybe in Mcclary's neck of the woods.

 

[mcclary's electrical]

when change out a fuse panel to a breaker panel of the ame size,,,,I don't install arc-faults unless specified by customer. They weren't required when fuse panel was installed,,,,so I grandfather it since NOTHING IS MOVING.