Accessible & Can Light

[ivsenroute]

During a remodeling job I inspected today I came across two junction boxes tucked inside an existing ceiling right next to a new can light that is in the addition that is not drywalled yet.

I have a problem with that because I do not believe that the junction boxes will be accessible when the the drywall is installed.

The electrician believes that they are accessible because he can remove the can and reach them. I however feel as though the flexible conduit that connects the can to the housing junction box will not allow that to happen.

Has anyone ever tried to do this and pass an inspection?

The electrician told me that he has had this exact sitation before and it passed. I am still not buying the accessible part although I see his point.

I figure I would pole this and think about since I like to be open minded.

 

[George Stolz]

If it's not accessible, you can't wire the can itself.

 

[iwire]

If it's not accessible, you can't wire the can itself.

Good point.

 

[ivsenroute]

Now we have 2 loose, unsecured junction boxes laying on top of the ceiling drywall.

 

[bobsherwood]

I voted against what I really feel is technically the right answer. It is accessable... but, NFPA 70E does address "blind reaching" so I voted not. The electricians here are getting cut up wrists, ticked off and frustrated working on them. It's ugly as sin but, we have begun having carpenters install access panel at each light when the ballast fail. And the ones with emergency ballast... OH MY! terrible to work on.

 

[celtic]

IMHO, there are other issues at hand than just "accessibility".
The unsecured box [as mentioned] as well as the wiring method probably not being secured either.

I fail the installation.
The EC could have used other means considering the ceiling's status was "open" at one point during this job.

 

[nakulak]

extremely bad practice.

maybe it meets the minimum code ? i don't know but that is just really shoddy workmanship and makes troubleshooting a nightmare. anyone who gets that kind of installation passes should have to be on call for the life of the building to troubleshoot and repair the crap.

 

[iwire]

Now we have 2 loose, unsecured junction boxes laying on top of the ceiling drywall.

Then fail it for that.


But in my opinion code wise they boxes are accessible .... assuming it is the type of fixture that can be disassembled.

 

[electricmanscott]

I've done it and if the need arises I'll do it again.
Other than the boxes not being secured, which to me is no biggie, they are accessible.

 

[big john]

I voted "No" mainly because of the "unsecured box" factor. If the box has to remain unsecured in order to be "accessible" then the installation is in violation.

If you secure the box, but can no longer see it to work on it, then I don't really consider that "accessible". Being able to stick my arm in a hole in the ceiling and touch it doesn't really count as "accessible" if I have no idea what I'm touching.

And I agree with Nakulak that it may be minimum code but it's a bad install from a troubleshooting standpoint. Not to say I haven't put boxes in ugly spots in a pinch, but it's best avoided.

-John

 

[infinity]

Then fail it for that.


But in my opinion code wise they boxes are accessible .... assuming it is the type of fixture that can be disassembled.

I agree. If the box is properly mounted and can be reached through the fixture it's accessible.

 

[gndrod]

I agree. If the box is properly mounted and can be reached through the fixture it's accessible.

It all comes down to defining "through-the-fixture". Is this the recessed can 'j-box' accessibility, or does the complete can assembly need to be removed to get at the s/r closed-in box? I would vote no on my interpretation from post 1.

 

[mcclary's electrical]

I did a job for an small apartment complex. They were doing some small improvements to each unit. One of the "upgrades" was to remove flush mount light in hallway and install recessed can. After getting into it,,,,we see there is ductwork above the flushmounts. The owner insisted upon still having a recessed can. So they lowered the ceiling enough for a can. The can was to go directly under the old box. The inspector agreed, and let me put a blank plate on old box w/ 1/2 ko and leave the box via nm. and go to the recessed j-box.,,,,,,,,I think it's the RIGHT call,,,,,and if it won't meet code,,,,,,HOW can the manufacturer of the light install their j-box on the light,,,,but in the SAME location,,,,,you still have to remove the three screws in the light to get to the j-box,,,,,so if you can reach the light jbox through the hole,,,,,,why not another, PROPERLY MOUNTED and terminated box.

 

[magictolight.com]

I have used the can light junction box itself for splices that were required when finishing basements and such. This works well as long as you don't exceed box fill requirements. It stinks to have to do it but sometimes the alternative is far worse. Anybody see anything wrong with that, other than nightmare troubleshooting?

 

[gndrod]

Or maybe a cord and cap connected can to the original outlet box with a receptacle and plate. (Since the ceiling was 'lowered'.) rbj

 

[mcclary's electrical]

Or maybe a cord and cap connected can to the original outlet box with a receptacle and plate. (Since the ceiling was 'lowered'.) rbj

when i said "lowered"....i mean framing and drywall

 

[e57]

Accesible - but a last resort type of practice. It is 'hiding' it - and accessible can be debatable to how much range of motion with a stubby it takes to open said box, or see what you might be doing same.... That said I voted accessible - but no other options was available...

 

[LarryFine]

Now we have 2 loose, unsecured junction boxes laying on top of the ceiling drywall.

You didn't say they were unsecured in the OP.

If it's not accessible, you can't wire the can itself.

Now, he did say the jobwasn't drywalled yet.


However, the can's own J-box is considered accessible by dropping (or pushing up) the can.

 

[LarryFine]

I have used the can light junction box itself for splices that were required when finishing basements and such.

Same here. No rule says only conductors for the fixture may be in its box.

 

[gndrod]

when i said "lowered"....i mean framing and drywall

If there are no tiles, then the lowered ceiling is not 'dropped'. I was avoiding the intent of a violation hopefully. rbj