Recessed Lights Over Tub/Shower

[360Youth]

Did a walk through for a remodel today and the HO wants to install recessed can/vent fan over their tubs. We have installed these before, but never over a tub. It is listed as acceptable in shower applications if protected by GFI and used with PAR30L or PAR30LN lamp (seems to CFL), but I thought any trim over a tub/shower had to have glass lens. 410.4 just states that luminares shall be listed for area. Is it allowable to install open baffle in a shower area?

 

[augie47]

I believe the listing (without lens) is acceptable due to the use of the "PAR" type lamps. Those lamps are approved for wet locations.
The "flaw" as I see it (one over which we have no control) is the 1st time the PAR light burn out a "R-30" will go it. Of course the lens may disappear the first time a lens typer fixture is re lamped also.

 

[360Youth]

I believe the listing (without lens) is acceptable due to the use of the "PAR" type lamps. Those lamps are approved for wet locations.

So it is the PAR type that makes it approved. Never had cause to check in all these years. :roll:

 

[elohr46]

I don't think the type of lamp has anything to do with the listing.
410.4(A) says luminaires installed in wet and damp locations shall be installed so that water cannot enter or accumulate in wiring compartments, lampholders or other electrical parts. You have to ask yourself if water can enter or accumulate in the fixture.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I don't think the type of lamp has anything to do with the listing.
410.4(A) says luminaires installed in wet and damp locations shall be installed so that water cannot enter or accumulate in wiring compartments, lampholders or other electrical parts. You have to ask yourself if water can enter or accumulate in the fixture.

I will have to disagree with you. If the fixture is listed with GFCI protection and an Par lamp then I woul say the bulb is important. Par lamps are generally an outdoor lamp while the par lamps are indoor.,

Most fan light unuits I have seen are listed with the motor if it is GFCI protected.

I install many cans over tubs without lens and they are perfectly legal.

 

[augie47]

This is the mfg. wording for a Broan #744
? High efficiency centrifugal fan delivers 70 CFM ? HVI-certified 1.5 Sones ? Multiple units can easily be used in larger rooms ? Uses a 75 watt bulb, either R30 or BR30 for standard applications ? UL Listed for use over bathtubs and showers when connected to a GFCI protected branch circuit with PAR30L or PAR30LN type bulbs

Leads one to believe the lamp is the key

 

[elohr46]

This is the mfg. wording for a Broan #744
? High efficiency centrifugal fan delivers 70 CFM ? HVI-certified 1.5 Sones ? Multiple units can easily be used in larger rooms ? Uses a 75 watt bulb, either R30 or BR30 for standard applications ? UL Listed for use over bathtubs and showers when connected to a GFCI protected branch circuit with PAR30L or PAR30LN type bulbs

Leads one to believe the lamp is the key

That's fine, if his unit a Broan#744 or one with similar instructions. Have seen many that are not listed that way or not GFCI protected.

 

[elohr46]

I will have to disagree with you. If the fixture is listed with GFCI protection and an Par lamp then I woul say the bulb is important. Par lamps are generally an outdoor lamp while the par lamps are indoor.,

Most fan light unuits I have seen are listed with the motor if it is GFCI protected.

I install many cans over tubs without lens and they are perfectly legal.

Yes, but the code says the fixture has to installed so that water cannot enter it or any other electrical parts, without a lens I don't see that happening. In fact the fan is probably sucking water/water vapor right into the unit.

 

[GrayHeadedMule]

Par lamps are generally an outdoor lamp while the par lamps are indoor.,

Are you saying what you think you are saying?

Aren't these both the same?

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Are you saying what you think you are saying?

Aren't these both the same?

Sorry-- on a lot of drugs lately so I appologize in advance- Par means outdoor while R means indoor.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Yes, but the code says the fixture has to installed so that water cannot enter it or any other electrical parts, without a lens I don't see that happening. In fact the fan is probably sucking water/water vapor right into the unit.

It only says that if the lights are subject to shower sprayand encompassing THE ZONE".

If the light is over a tub without a shower than no closed lens is necessary. If the light is over a tub and shower and higher than the 8' verticalal from the the threshold then a lens is also not needed.

 

[infinity]

The NEC requirement is that the unit be listed for wet locations. How the manufacturer secures that listing is his business. It could be completely enclosed or have a specific lamp type or be required to have duct seal or bubble gum around the lamp.

Point being that the wet location listing is all that really matters.

 

[hurk27]

Yes, but the code says the fixture has to installed so that water cannot enter it or any other electrical parts, without a lens I don't see that happening. In fact the fan is probably sucking water/water vapor right into the unit.

I'm cornfused

I always thought this was the whole reason we have to put a exhaust fan in a bathroom?

if so then they all suck water vapor into them:roll:

 

[sparkyway]

Can someone give the code reference which would require a recessed can over an enclosed shower or any shower to be gfci protected even with a shower trim? I don't recall that one at all....thanks.

 

[mcclary's electrical]

Can someone give the code reference which would require a recessed can over an enclosed shower or any shower to be gfci protected even with a shower trim? I don't recall that one at all....thanks.

there's not one

 

[augie47]

Can someone give the code reference which would require a recessed can over an enclosed shower or any shower to be gfci protected even with a shower trim? I don't recall that one at all....thanks.

with some brands... 110.3(B)
(I've found it most often on brands with exposed metallic parts..trim , etc)

 

[infinity]

Can someone give the code reference which would require a recessed can over an enclosed shower or any shower to be gfci protected even with a shower trim? I don't recall that one at all....thanks.

This is a manufacturer's requirement it's not in the NEC.

 

[elohr46]

It only says that if the lights are subject to shower sprayand encompassing THE ZONE".

If the light is over a tub without a shower than no closed lens is necessary. If the light is over a tub and shower and higher than the 8' verticalal from the the threshold then a lens is also not needed.

I can agree to those statements. Lower than 8', is subject to shower spray and in the 'zone' requires a lens or something that will keep the water out of the fixture. A gasketed lens is the only thing I see that works.

 

[infinity]

I can agree to those statements. Lower than 8', is subject to shower spray and in the 'zone' requires a lens or something that will keep the water out of the fixture. A gasketed lens is the only thing I see that works.

A gasketed lens on a damp location fixture would be a violation in this application. A listed wet location fixture with an open lamp listed for use in that fixture would be code compliant.

 

[elohr46]

A gasketed lens on a damp location fixture would be a violation in this application. A listed wet location fixture with an open lamp listed for use in that fixture would be code compliant.

There was no mention of gasketed lenses for damp location installations. I agree that a listed wet location fixture does not need a gasketed lens unless it is installed in violation of 410.10(A) where "it shall be installed such that water cannot enter or accumulate" etc. That situation is to be determined by the installer's good judgement or his inspector's.