Is a firestation considered a dwelling unit?

[stete]

I'm currently trying to do a load calculation for a fire station. The station has an existing 150A 3phase 208 service. The station has 6 bedrooms, 1 office/command center, a kitchen, a laundry room, a mechanical room, storage, an ambulance bay, and two fire truck bays.

The 2008 N.E.C. defines a "Dwelling Unit" as a single unit, providing complete and independent living facilities for one or more persons, including permanent provisions for living, sleeping, cooking, and sanitation.

Can I use the "Dwelling unit" calculations for demand factors on appliances, dryers, ranges, receptacles, etc?

The kitchen in this fire station has (2) microwaves, (2) ranges, (4) refridgerators, (2) disposals, and (1) dishwasher

Thanks for your input in advance

 

[iwire]

The 2008 N.E.C. defines a "Dwelling Unit" as a single unit, providing complete and independent living facilities for one or more persons, including permanent provisions for living, sleeping, cooking, and sanitation.

I have always argued yes, clearly it is a dwelling unit but I was pretty much alone in that opinion.

 

[steve66]

I have always argued yes, clearly it is a dwelling unit but I was pretty much alone in that opinion.

I'll join you Bob. At least for the most part. I think living areas would be considered dwellings. However, if there are offices and conference rooms, I would probably treat those areas more like a business.

If we are going to call it a dwelling, they will need AFCI, and tamper proof receptacles, and bedroom type smoke alarms. Correct?? In Illinois, a CO2 detector would also be required.
Steve

 

[wbalsam1]

IMHO, a "dwelling unit" is managed by a housekeeper. A housekeeper manages a household. A household has to do with domestic affairs. A firehouse is a commercial occupancy having to do with managing public affairs as they relate to fires, etc.

 

[raider1]

IMHO a fire station with provisions for firefighters to live at the facility would be a mixed occupancy according to the building code. My personal opinion would be that there are typically 3 distinct types of occupancies present at a fire station.

First you would have a "B" occupancy type for the office areas.

Second you would have an "R2" occupancy type for the living quarters. An "R2" occupancy is a residential occupancy containing sleeping units or more than two dwelling units where occupants are primarily permanent in nature. These occupancies include apartment houses, dormitories etc.

Third you would have an "S2" occupancy for the parking bays for the fire engines.

So, IMHO a fire station contains at least 1 dwelling unit with multiple sleeping units.

Chris

 

[charlie b]

I recall debating this one before. I will stick with my earlier opinion that this is not a dwelling unit. I can't stick around (I'm supposed to be on vacation) to press the point. So I will only say that nobody "lives" there, that this is a place to work, not to live, that one person sleeps in the bed one night (or day) and another person will sleep in the same bed tomorrow. Oh, and they get paid to be there.

 

[iwire]

I recall debating this one before. I will stick with my earlier opinion that this is not a dwelling unit. I can't stick around (I'm supposed to be on vacation) to press the point. So I will only say that nobody "lives" there, that this is a place to work, not to live, that one person sleeps in the bed one night (or day) and another person will sleep in the same bed tomorrow. Oh, and they get paid to be there.

Charlie, in my area a fireman is often 'on duty' for many days, they actually live for 2, 3, 4, maybe 6 days straight at the fire station.

Now how is that not a dwelling unit?

 

[hardworkingstiff]

How is an extended stay motel treated? It seems to me the Fire Station (living/sleeping section) would be similiar.

 

[76nemo]

How is an extended stay motel treated? It seems to me the Fire Station (living/sleeping section) would be similiar.

Hard arguement. A fire station is "dwelled" 24/7, by sometimes several occupants. A motel/hotel are non-dwelling due to stay intervals. Commercial..."yes",...but 24/7 occupancy,..."yes". Why wouldn't it be considered a "dwelling"?

 

[benaround]

IMO, A firestation does not provide "permanent provisions for living " , it provides

temporary provisions for living. For example, in the firestations I have wired there was no

laundry facilities ( or circuit for laundry ) as required in dwelling units.

 

[charlie b]

Now how is that not a dwelling unit?

Ask the fire fighters if the station is their home. Also, the NEC does not recognize "occupancies." The facility either is, or is not, a dwelling unit. It might be a good practice to treat part of the building one way, ane the rest of the building another way, but the NEC does not push us into that direction.

As I said, this has been debated before. I don't wish to do it again.

 

[George Stolz]

I will go along with the idea that this is most similar to a guest room or a guest suite. I think this is a subject in the NEC that could stand for an upgrade, IMO.

The problem I see with applying "dwelling unit" is when we try to apply the definition:

Dwelling, One-Family. A building that consists solely of one dwelling unit.
Dwelling, Two-Family. A building that consists solely of two dwelling units.
Dwelling, Multifamily. A building that contains three or more dwelling units.
Dwelling Unit. A single unit, providing complete and independent living facilities for one or more persons, including permanent provisions for living, sleeping, cooking, and sanitation.

It's hard to say without seeing the prints, of course, but I imagine a scenario where it is exceedingly hard to draw a box or a circle around a toilet, a range, and a bed dedicated to a particular unit, surrounded by walls.

The opposing view can then call it a "one family dwelling" so that the circle or box gets bigger; but it just doesn't feel right to me.

Guest room or suite seems to work better in my head.

But I think it exposes a problem with the wording: Why can't I call a duplex a "one family dwelling"? Why can't I call an eight-plex a "one family dwelling"?

 

[iwire]

Ask the fire fighters if the station is their home.

I don't see that as having much to do with it, it is not something included with the NEC definition.

The facility either is, or is not, a dwelling unit.

No, part of it can be a dwelling unit while other parts are not, think of a an apartment building above retail spaces.

As I said, this has been debated before. I don't wish to do it again.

Thats cool, as far as the OP I suggest 'Ask the AHJ' how they feel.

 

[Pierre C Belarge]

In the definition of Dwelling Unit, I do not see where it says someone has to live there.

"Dwelling Unit.
A single unit, providing complete and independent living facilities for one or more persons, including permanent provisions for living, sleeping, cooking, and sanitation."


But, as Chris has mentioned, I believe the building department would have more to say about the type of occupancy for this structure than the NEC does.
I can see this as a multiple use occupancy, with dwelling unit being the portion for where the firestation personnel would occupy the space for eating/sleeping and resting.

 

[76nemo]

In the definition of Dwelling Unit, I do not see where it says someone has to live there.

"Dwelling Unit.
A single unit, providing complete and independent living facilities for one or more persons, including permanent provisions for living, sleeping, cooking, and sanitation."


But, as Chris has mentioned, I believe the building department would have more to say about the type of occupancy for this structure than the NEC does.
I can see this as a multiple use occupancy, with dwelling unit being the portion for where the firestation personnel would occupy the space for eating/sleeping and resting.

This is where I get stumped,...like that's hard to do:roll:

Larger fire stations have living quarters, game rooms, showers, kitchens, etc..

Whether or not one single person can call that home is irrelevant to me. The unit will be occupied at all times due to on call personnel. Where does the line get drawn? Whether or not it's multiple use occupancy, it is not like a hotel/motel with different stay intervals. It IS occupied 24/7. I see it as a dwelling. If on call and they go out to a service, they still remain grounded until their shift is over and someone else relieves.
That to me seems as a dwelling.

 

[K8MHZ]

I'm currently trying to do a load calculation for a fire station. The station has an existing 150A 3phase 208 service. The station has 6 bedrooms, 1 office/command center, a kitchen, a laundry room, a mechanical room, storage, an ambulance bay, and two fire truck bays.

The 2008 N.E.C. defines a "Dwelling Unit" as a single unit, providing complete and independent living facilities for one or more persons, including permanent provisions for living, sleeping, cooking, and sanitation.

Can I use the "Dwelling unit" calculations for demand factors on appliances, dryers, ranges, receptacles, etc?

The kitchen in this fire station has (2) microwaves, (2) ranges, (4) refridgerators, (2) disposals, and (1) dishwasher

Thanks for your input in advance

Since the addresses of the firefighters would not be the firehouse I would not think it would qualify as 'permanent provisions'.

To me, a firehouse is a commercial installation at the least.

 

[Volta]

Since the addresses of the firefighters would not be the firehouse I would not think it would qualify as 'permanent provisions'.

To me, a firehouse is a commercial installation at the least.

I think the "provisions" for living, sleeping, cooking and sanitation remain in place when the shift changes, thus "permanent".

 

[Pierre C Belarge]

Since the addresses of the firefighters would not be the firehouse I would not think it would qualify as 'permanent provisions'.

To me, a firehouse is a commercial installation at the least.

How does that affect the multitude of individuals who reside in a "dwelling", yet receive their mail at a PO Box?

 

[iwire]

I think the "provisions" for living, sleeping, cooking and sanitation remain in place when the shift changes, thus "permanent".

Exactly, my family and I do not permanently stay at our home either, sometimes we go on vacation. Even without us being there it remains a dwelling unit.

To me, a firehouse is a commercial installation at the least.

What is a 'commercial installation' and where is that found in the NEC?

 

[mivey]

As I said, this has been debated before. I don't wish to do it again.

Well then, by a preponderance of the evidence...

Whether or not it's multiple use occupancy, it is not like a hotel/motel with different stay intervals. It IS occupied 24/7. I see it as a dwelling. If on call and they go out to a service, they still remain grounded until their shift is over and someone else relieves.
That to me seems as a dwelling.

What bearing does 24/7 have on it? What about a busy motel that stays booked most of the time? Does the wiring become safer depending on how long a nap someone takes? :grin:

The firehouse seems more like a motel to me. I'm thinking of the ones I have seen: functional, but hardly home away from home.