PV System

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We are designing a system for a small office building. The primary power is from the utility transformer (FP&L). The owner also wants an emergency generator (hurricane season). We are also putting in a 25kw photovoltaic system. The owner isn't concerned about backfeeding the utility grid. He want the PV to work while the utility is down. The current thought is to have the utility & the generator on an automatic transfer switch, and bring the PV into a distribution panel on the load side of the ATS. My concern is the the PV will possibly backfeed through the ATS to the generator. Is this a possibility?


Thanks
 
If your using a standard grid tied inverter the PV will not produce any output without utility power on line.

Have you downloaded and locked at your power company's rules and regulations regarding PV systems, they are quite picky about how it is done.

You would likely need a PV inverter designed to be both grid tied and stand along which would also require a battery bank for storage during utility outages.

The owner isn't concerned about back feeding the utility grid. He want the PV to work while the utility is down.

What exactly does that mean ' isn't concerned about back feeding the utility grid'

What exactly does the owner expect the PV system to do?
 
090924-2046 EST

Mayimbe:

I have no idea what your statement means or how it applies to the original post.
Since its a generator and not a motor, there is not a possibility. Kirchoff Law

First consider a simple DC generator connected to a DC motor. Make the field on both a permanent magnet. In fact just take two identical DC motors. Make one the generator initially and the other the motor.

The implication here is that the generator has mechanical power fed to its shaft. Maybe it is a water wheel. For the moment the motor is unloaded mechanically. Power flows from the generator to the motor.

The internal voltage generated in the generator is Vg. At the generator output terminals, the brushes, the voltage is V1 = Vg - Ra*Ia. In other words there is a voltage drop in the internal impedance of the generator resulting from the load current making making the output voltage lower than the generated voltage.

At the motor end there is a similar voltage drop that means the internal counter-EMF that is generated by the motor is about Vemf = Vg - 2*Ra*Ia. In turn this means the motor is running slower than the generator.

Next apply mechanical input power to the motor shaft sufficient to increase the motor shaft RPM above that of the generator and now the previous motor becomes the generator and the previous generator becomes a motor.

In this unique case put a simple diode in series with the generator to motor supply and you can prevent the back feed.


cdavis7254:

In what country are you located? Follow their rules.

Iwire has initiated some of the questions you need to consider. You really need a background in electrical circuit theory to consider the consequences of what you are describing.

I think you have said that both the backup generator and the PV are tied together and neither connects to the grid before or after the transfer switch changes state. So your real question has nothing to do with the grid. You could consider that grid does not exist.

Thus, your problem is how the generator and PV system interact with one another. This is a complex problem and will be dependent upon actual loads, overloads, failures, and what is to happen under these different conditions.

There are a lot of different questions that you need to answer. But first find out the rules for your type of proposed application. Once you know the rules, then consider all the different failure conditions and what is urgent to run under these conditions.

To illustrate my home situation. In 40 years we may have lost power three times for any extended time. The major time and problem was the northeast blackout. The probability of future failures is not high. I have a noisy 5 KW portable generator. I run it as little as possible within the night. With this size unit I can keep the basic items working in my house. These are two freezers, one refrigerator, two furnaces, and a few lights. This average load is low enough that I can for part of the day transport the generator to my daughter's house and keep it running also. How I prioritize the operation depends upon whether it is winter or summer.

In the summer my freezers are a problem because the rate of rise internally in temperature is about 6 deg/hour. So starting at 6 deg, the point where the compressor should start to cool, I have maybe 3 hours before cooling must start again. At night this means the generator has to run sometime in the middle of the night. Truly for furnace blower motors and refrigeration equipment I could work off of less than 1500 watts of peak power from an inverter and batteries. 20 KWH of energy storage would improve generator efficiency and eliminate the need to run the generator at night.

These comments are just to get you to think about questions to ask.

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The owner also wants an emergency generator (hurricane season). He want the PV to work while the utility is down.
That is not going to happen period.

As Bob mentioned you can use what is called a Hybrid inverter with battery back up, and use the genset to keep the batteries charged while utility power is out, but that is going to just about double the cost of the system and require about 800/ft2 to hold all those batteries.

You only option is to use the generator as it was meant to be used, emergency power. The solar system will not have anything to do with it while the POCO is out.
 
to gar

to gar

090924-2046 EST

Mayimbe:

I have no idea what your statement means or how it applies to the original post.

How? Well, the OP said:

"My concern is the the PV will possibly backfeed through the ATS to the generator. Is this a possibility?"

From this question, I said that theres not a possibility of that happening.

The OP concern is that the PV thats connected to the same bus bar that the generator, will deliver somehow current to the generator. The only way that can happen is that the generator behaves like a motor somehow.

How can that happen? the OP question, not how can a generator behaves like a motor
 
We are designing a system for a small office building. The primary power is from the utility transformer (FP&L). The owner also wants an emergency generator (hurricane season). We are also putting in a 25kw photovoltaic system. The owner isn't concerned about backfeeding the utility grid. He want the PV to work while the utility is down. The current thought is to have the utility & the generator on an automatic transfer switch, and bring the PV into a distribution panel on the load side of the ATS. My concern is the the PV will possibly backfeed through the ATS to the generator. Is this a possibility? ...
cd-
If I understand correctly, you are proposing to connect the emergency generator and PV in parallel, both PV and gen to operate when the utility is off-line. OR -- When the utility is off-line, PV to operate, standing alone, with the generator to come on, in parallel with the PV, to supplement the PV as necessary.

If so, either one is a bit non-standard but can work just fine. It will take a bit of engineering and careful selection of components. Likely the biggest issue is if the owner is willing to pay - if so, it is an interesting job.

... The current thought is to have the utility & the generator on an automatic transfer switch, and bring the PV into a distribution panel on the load side of the ATS. ...
That will get rid of most any objection the utility will have. They rarely care what you connect on the load side of the transfer switch.

... My concern is the the PV will possibly backfeed through the ATS to the generator. ...
I'm a bit baffled by the concern here. The only thing I can think of is: With the generator on-line, in parallel with a PV fed inverter, and the generator driver quits, and the gen cb does not open, can the PV fed inverter reverse power the generator? If so, that is just a protective relay issue - part of the design to insure the gen cb trips on reverse power.

... We are also putting in a 25kw photovoltaic system. The owner isn't concerned about backfeeding the utility grid. He want the PV to work while the utility is down. ...
Just a thought: 25kw is a significant PV installation to only be used when the utility is off-line. You may wish to consider having the PV set up to for co-generation to the utility when the utility is on-line, and switch the PV fed inverter to parallel operation with the emergency gen when the utility is off-line. The idea is to get the customer back some of their money. As bob said, you will need to coordinate the co-generation part with the utility.


Let us know how it comes out - it is a pretty interesting job.

cf
 
090924-2046 EST

In what country are you located? Follow their rules.

Iwire has initiated some of the questions you need to consider. You really need a background in electrical circuit theory to consider the consequences of what you are describing.

I think you have said that both the backup generator and the PV are tied together and neither connects to the grid before or after the transfer switch changes state. So your real question has nothing to do with the grid. You could consider that grid does not exist.


.

We are in the U.S., in Florida. And I agree that I can consider that the grid doesn't exist. The PV system will read the power from the generator the same way it would read power from the grid.
 
090925-1123 EST

cdavis7254:

As a system design problem my question is what is the purpose of the PV supply? Is this really for backup during a hurricane? Does not seem logical, where is the light source? More likely for backup after the storm. What is the real objective of the PV system?

Has much real thought gone into the reasons for the system as it has been outlined to you?

Some questions to consider:
1. What is the normal peak load, 1 second samples, for this building?
2. What is the average daily load?
3. How long is an average power outage?
4. How often does a power outage occur?
5. During an outage what is the peak load, again 1 second samples?
6. During an outage what is average daily load?
7. To what extent can the peak load be limited during an outage? And what is this value?
8. If the load is limited to essentials during an outage what is the daily average load?

I am am sure you can think of more questions.

.
 
PV System - Inverters and generators

PV System - Inverters and generators

A normal grid-connected PV inverter will not work in parallel with a generator. These inverters are designed to disconnect if the grid is out of tolerance voltage or frequency wise and if the grid is not connected (islanding). The inverters try to force the phase angle forward and back on a small scale (so it does not make detectable electrical distortion) and detect that the grid resists the phase shift. Generators are small with respect to the grid and will shift enough to be detected by the inverter and a disconnect will happen. Part of the UL listing requirements.

What to do? There are stand-alone inverters that will function as desired. They can be generator assisted, they are between the generator and the load and they synchronize with the generator before allowing the generator to connect. They require batteries. They are more expensive. In Arizona there is a remote shooting range for law enforcement training that does this at 100 KW with 208/120 3? AC distribution. The government could afford it (too hot to train during the day in summer, much of the power is for range lighting). Google Satcon inverters. If only 8-9 KW look into Xantrex SW4000 series and the similar Outback inverters. These can be stacked to increase power level.

You could do both with one PV array and separate inverters for grid and non-grid operation. Use a DC rated transfer switch to switch the PV array. The grid design qualifies for rebates in many states. Rebates usually require building permits which in turn require an engineered design. Done poorly it can be dangerous, DC voltages approaching 600V are needed for the Satcon.
 
Yes, as posted above, PV grid tie inverters detect the presence of the grid and wont normally function without it.

Under some circumstances a grid tie inverter might work in conjunction with a backup diesel generator.
If the generator is very large compared to the inverter, and has a tightly regulated frequency, then the grid tie inverter wont "know" if it is connected to the generator, and will work as intended, slightly reducing the load on the generator. This would save fuel and might allow a slightly greater load to be supplied.
Here in the UK I have certainly worked a 3KW grid tie inverter, paraleled with one phase of a three phase 240/415 volt, 150 KVA diesel and it worked fine.
This is however useing equipment in other than the intended way, and may therefore be a code violation.

I would suggest in this case that a standard grid tied PV and inverter be installed, this will work as intended reducing the power bill by backfeeding whenever the sun is out and the grid is present.

Then install the generator to code, as with any other generator, for backup in case of utility failure.

This means that the PV array wont help in a blackout, but that should not matter as it will be for relatively few hours a year, and the extra diesel fuel burnt will be of little consequence.

If however the customer is determined that the PV array must be utilised during power cuts, then there are several options, all more costly and complicated.

1) Connect the grid tie inverter(s) to the sub panel that is supplied from the generator, having first obtained asurance from the manufactueres that the inverters will work in conjunction with utility or generator power.
Remember that in this case the inverter will only function with grid or generator power present, it WILL NOT permit of supplying any load on its own.
Special permision from the AHJ may be required for this non standard installation

2) Install a stand alone PV based battery charging system, with the loads either supplied with DC from the battery, or at line voltage via an inverter.
This would permit of essiential loads being powered indefinatly without reliance on either grid or generator power.
If desired, the battery could also be charged from the grid or generator power, this would perhaps save running the engine for relatively small loads.
Such a system would be more complex, but if properly enginered would provide extremely reliable power.
The drawback would the cost and bulk of the battery, and the lower effeciency.

3) Install a grid tied PV system, but with a manual DC rated changeover switch between the PV array and the grid tie inverter.
This would normally function like any other grid tie system.
In case of utility failure, the switch would be operated to utilise the PV array for battery charging.
Essiential loads being transfered from line power to battery power in case of utility failure.
This would resemble a standard battery back up/UPS system, with the battery normally charged from the line, and kept in reserve for failures.
The run time on battery would be greatly extended, perhaps indefinatly by the solar input.
The drawbacks would be cost and complexity, and probably design compromises regarding the PV array voltage.
 
We are designing a system for a small office building. The primary power is from the utility transformer (FP&L). The owner also wants an emergency generator (hurricane season). We are also putting in a 25kw photovoltaic system. The owner isn't concerned about backfeeding the utility grid. He want the PV to work while the utility is down. The current thought is to have the utility & the generator on an automatic transfer switch, and bring the PV into a distribution panel on the load side of the ATS. My concern is the the PV will possibly backfeed through the ATS to the generator. Is this a possibility?


Thanks

The Utility would have a problem with that.

You solution would be to have a fully sized MG set powered from the Utility and the feeding the main panel via an ATS. The other source for the ATS is your generator set. The PV set is feeding your main panel via a sub-breaker. Others addressed the regulation problems. You will have the additional expense of the initial cost of the MG set and the efficieny would be a continuous cost adder.
 
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