Nuisance arc fault trip

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magictolight.com

magictolight.com

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Indianola, Iowa
Thursday I have a warranty call back to a home we wired a year and a half ago. Each bedroom has its own arc fault circuit, 3 bedrooms total. That makes a sum of 3 arc fault circuits in the home. I am being told that once every week and a half or so, one arc fault will trip and cause all 3 arc faults to trip simultaneously. I was certain that we split each circuit up, no ground or neutral sharing so I am puzzled as to where I should start on this troubleshoot. Of course when I get there I'm sure everything will be operating correctly. Any body run into a situation like this and what did you find?
 
Sounds like maybe some RF interference possible.
Quite possible the customer is mistaken about all three simultaneously tripping. Could be one trips because of a vacuum cleaner. The maid goes to the next room, it trips then the next and so on.
 
I've chased one circuit on AFCI that's enough for me... :)

I couldn't clear the power from a receptacle to a switch feeding a small closet florescent. A little time had lapsed Sheet rocker long gone, paint was dry, every thing was in and working till loaded...

Sure a meggar and or a hair dryer... It'll show up quick!

I'd at least make sure you "re-understand" the circuit and ring the first neutral out on each run.

See if you can get the cause and effect correctly described from the client...

Good luck!
 
Testing AFCI

Testing AFCI

After spending a couple of days recently troubleshooting new AFCI circuits, there are a few questions that came up to resolve tripping...
Process of elimination
1.Any possible simultaneous use of combinations of vacuum cleaner, electric razor, hedge trimmer...etc. causing harmonics?
2. Are there additional AFCI's that do not trip.
3. Are these Combination AFCI's or older brand recalls such as the 2004 SqD?
4. Any magnetic ballasted loads on any of these circuits.
5. Any loose common grounding bus terminal connection?

Our solution was wiring a NM cable directly from one AFCI breaker to receptacle with a plugged in load. Failure was a loose bus bond connection.
 
There are reliability problems with some brands of combo afci's. I had a batch of 5 in one house. After spending way too much time on trying to locate wiring defects, I started realizing what was the actual problem. I set up a load center on a sheet of plywood, put those breakers into it, ran an outlet screwed to the plywood off each one with 12-2 romex that had nm style cable connectors at the load center. Plug in any of my Millwaulkee drills and run for a little while and they would trip. Tried same with other power tools - same thing. Tried vacume cleaners- same thing. 5 x $45 bucks and what I got for the money was bad quality control. I since dumped the brand and use Seimens now, even though there are things like the terminal screws on the breaker lugs and neut/ gr busbars that I just plain dislike about them. I have had no false trip problems since I switched brands. It is a crime that they are required while the technology is not yet perfected in my humble opinion.
 
gndrod said:
After spending a couple of days recently troubleshooting new AFCI circuits, there are a few questions that came up to resolve tripping...
Process of elimination
1.Any possible simultaneous use of combinations of vacuum cleaner, electric razor, hedge trimmer...etc. causing harmonics?
2. Are there additional AFCI's that do not trip.
3. Are these Combination AFCI's or older brand recalls such as the 2004 SqD?
4. Any magnetic ballasted loads on any of these circuits.
5. Any loose common grounding bus terminal connection?

Our solution was wiring a NM cable directly from one AFCI breaker to receptacle with a plugged in load. Failure was a loose bus bond connection.
Click to expand...

If #1,#2,and #4 are the cause of problems, then the devices should be banned from the NEC, and local requirements. This isn't making anything "safer" it is causing real world problems until they get the QC under control.
 
magictolight.com said:
Thursday I have a warranty call back to a home we wired a year and a half ago. Each bedroom has its own arc fault circuit, 3 bedrooms total. That makes a sum of 3 arc fault circuits in the home. I am being told that once every week and a half or so, one arc fault will trip and cause all 3 arc faults to trip simultaneously. I was certain that we split each circuit up, no ground or neutral sharing so I am puzzled as to where I should start on this troubleshoot. Of course when I get there I'm sure everything will be operating correctly. Any body run into a situation like this and what did you find?
Click to expand...
When you get there plug in her vacuum, and unplug it while it is turned on. the AFI will trip EVERY TIME. You cannot plug or unplug anything ( like a clock radio) while it is demanding power or the brkr will trip. These things have been a pain in our rear and we have just started changing them to GFI's
 
One more thing to check: make sure the grounded and ungrounded conductors for each circuit both land on the same breaker. It's easier than you think to mix them up. (You did remember that the white hits the breaker, too, right?)
 
JODell said:
These things have been a pain in our rear and we have just started changing them to GFI's
Click to expand...

Another one is that smoke alarm that keeps going off every time I broil meat in my oven. So I just changed it to a carbon monoxide detector and it stopped being a pain in the neck while I'm making steak tips.
 
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LarryFine said:
One more thing to check: make sure the grounded and ungrounded conductors for each circuit both land on the same breaker. It's easier than you think to mix them up. (You did remember that the white hits the breaker, too, right?)
Click to expand...
Got a call from a person with self-wiring knowledge that had a breaker tripping. Yes, he just checked to see that everything was hooked up correctly. It has to be a fault somewhere. I headed over with my test gear to see if I could help him find the fault and...see post #11.

I would have needled him but, in my stupidity, I trusted the intel and went to the first receptacle and took it out to see of the fault was between the panel and first device.:roll:
 
jaylectricity said:
Another one is that smoke alarm that keeps going off every time I broil meat in my oven. So I just changed it to a carbon monoxide detector and it stopped being a pain in the neck while I'm making steak tips.
Click to expand...
Heat sensor for the kitchen. Or is this away from the kitchen? Maybe we need to discuss the benefits of medium rare.:grin:
 
macmikeman said:
If #1,#2,and #4 are the cause of problems, then the devices should be banned from the NEC, and local requirements. This isn't making anything "safer" it is causing real world problems until they get the QC under control.
Click to expand...

Information straight from the factory lead test engineer...(a popular brand)
#1 Harmonics can play havoc with Combination AFCI's.
#2 Tested under non-faulted load did not trip. Swapped with the BC having a failed AFCI and it did trip. Confirmed that circuit was faulty.
#4 Again, with an inductive load such as magnetic ballasting, Harmonics comes into question.

I agree about products that are so sophisticated and costly, I would expect the NEC and its intelligent panel makers would not fall into the pit of the manufacturer's $$$ agenda. rbj
 
LarryFine said:
One more thing to check: make sure the grounded and ungrounded conductors for each circuit both land on the same breaker. It's easier than you think to mix them up. (You did remember that the white hits the breaker, too, right?)
Click to expand...

That is a real money maker when a DIY calls.....rbj
 
mivey said:
Heat sensor for the kitchen. Or is this away from the kitchen? Maybe we need to discuss the benefits of medium rare.:grin:
Click to expand...

:)

My point was that a CO detector protects something different than a smoke detector, much like a GFCI protects something different than an AFCI.
 
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