GFCI required kitchen counter tops

[wyboy]

Are the receptacles required by the 2008 NEC 210.52 in pantry and dining room counter tops required to be GFCI protected? If so where is it required? 210.8(6) says GFCI are required only in kitchen counter tops.

 

[480sparky]

The pantry and dining room are only required to be an a SABC. 210.52(B)(1). Those areas have never been required to be GFCI protected.

 

[bobserrano]

Wall countertops receptacles in pantries, breakfast rooms, dining rooms, and similar areas of dwelling units do not need to be GFCI protected but do need to be spaced the same as in kitchens.

 

[construct]

The pantry and dining room are only required to be an a SABC. 210.52(B)(1).

210.52(B)(1) says "the two or more SABC required by 210.11(C)(1) shall serve all wall and floor receptacle outlets covered by 210.52(A). This means it is required.

Then, 210.52(B)(3) says "either or both of the SABC shall also be permitted to supply receptacle outlets in the same kitchen and in other rooms specified in 210.52(B)(1). This suggests that they can be supplied by the two or more SABC, but not required.

Since 210.52(B)(1) requires that the wall and floor receptacles be on a SABC, does that make 210.52(B)(3) a mute point?

 

[acrwc10]

Wall countertops receptacles in pantries, breakfast rooms, dining rooms, and similar areas of dwelling units do not need to be GFCI protected but do need to be spaced the same as in kitchens.[/QUOTE]

I must have missed that one, where does it say I need to space my dining room receptacles 4 foot apart ?

 

[electricmanscott]

Wall countertops receptacles in pantries, breakfast rooms, dining rooms, and similar areas of dwelling units do not need to be GFCI protected but do need to be spaced the same as in kitchens.[/QUOTE]

I must have missed that one, where does it say I need to space my dining room receptacles 4 foot apart ?

210.52 (C)

 

[iMuse97]

210.52(B)(1) says "the two or more SABC required by 210.11(C)(1) shall serve all wall and floor receptacle outlets covered by 210.52(A). This means it is required.

Then, 210.52(B)(3) says "either or both of the SABC shall also be permitted to supply receptacle outlets in the same kitchen and in other rooms specified in 210.52(B)(1). This suggests that they can be supplied by the two or more SABC, but not required.

Since 210.52(B)(1) requires that the wall and floor receptacles be on a SABC, does that make 210.52(B)(3) a mute point?

(B)(1) requires a SABC, while (B)(3) give you permission to make the SABC required by (B)(1) to be supplied by the two SABCs. It is just making it clear that you need not install a third SABC, but that, in any case, an SABC is to serve the "non-countertop" receptacles (wall and floor) in the "dining areas."

 

[iMuse97]

Wall countertops receptacles in pantries, breakfast rooms, dining rooms, and similar areas of dwelling units do not need to be GFCI protected but do need to be spaced the same as in kitchens.[/QUOTE]

I must have missed that one, where does it say I need to space my dining room receptacles 4 foot apart ?

they don't if they don't serve a countertop, see blue highlighting, a quote from 210.52(C) first line.

 

[roger3829]

(B)(1) requires a SABC, while (B)(3) give you permission to make the SABC required by (B)(1) to be supplied by the two SABCs. It is just making it clear that you need not install a third SABC, but that, in any case, an SABC is to serve the "non-countertop" receptacles (wall and floor) in the "dining areas."

I agree.

One SABC for the entire kitchen (excluding the refrigerator), and one SABC for the dinning room (with the refrigerator outlet).

 

[construct]

(B)(1) requires a SABC, while (B)(3) give you permission to make the SABC required by (B)(1) to be supplied by the two SABCs. It is just making it clear that you need not install a third SABC, but that, in any case, an SABC is to serve the "non-countertop" receptacles (wall and floor) in the "dining areas."

(B)(1) says two or more 20-ampere SABC because 210.11(C)(1) requires two or more. My point is that the wording in (B)(3) makes it sound permissible but not mandatory to put wall and floor receptacles in the kitchen, dining, etc on a SABC. Since (B)(1) makes it mandatory, is the fact that (B)(1) appears before (B)(3) what makes it mandatory?

I do agree that additonal SABC's are permissible but not required.

 

[jaylectricity]

Wow, this thread really opened my eyes. I've seen dining room receptacles on a SABC, but always assumed it was wrong. I guess I don't need to worry about that dining room receptacle that is first in line before it makes its way to a countertop receptacle during my next inspection.

And also that the dining room recepts can be one of the two SABCs? And that they can make up one of them entirely?

Then why the heck can't the microwave/exhaust over the stove be on one of 3 SABCs I installed in a kitchen I did earlier this year?

 

[electricmanscott]

Then why the heck can't the microwave/exhaust over the stove be on one of 3 SABCs I installed in a kitchen I did earlier this year?

Because it is a violation.

 

[renosteinke]

I remember a portrayal of a highway patrolman explaining a speeding ticket by saying: "The sign says LIMIT. Look it up!" An interesting point, as most drivers seem to consider the posted limit to be a minimum requirement.

Now ... for this small appliance branch circuit mess ...

The NEC says that the counters will be served by at least two branch circuits, even gives these circuits the name "small appliance branch circuits," and requires them to be 20 amp circuits. So far, so good.

The NEC then goes on to say -and this is where everyone seems to get confused - that the dining room will be on an SABC.

Now, there is nothing in that requirement that says anything on the counter has to be on the same circuit as the dining room! You just need the dining room to be on a 20 amp circuit.

Following SABC rules, this dining room circuit CAN also serve parts of the kitchen and pantry, but cannot be used for a bedroom or hallway.

There's no rule against the dining room, pantry, or other area in "SABC territory" having its' own circuit. Nor is there any rule against every receptacle serving a counter being on a different circuit. The counter circuits CAN supply non-counter receptacles, as long as those receptacles are in "SABC territory."

Now... let's 'flash back' to the house where I grew up. Built in 1963, imagine this layout: An 10x16' kitchen, with a 10x10 dining room at the short end. One long wall and one short wall were outside walls; the other walls bordered other rooms in the house.

A common practice when wiring wall receptacles is to have every receptacle in that wall, on either face, be powered by the same circuit, Thus, the receptacles on one wall of the dining room were tied into the circuit that served the bedroom on the other side. The "No other outlets" part of the NEC would forbid this practice for this location. The same issue applied to the long side of the kitchen, which bordered the living room.

Let's look at some of the other receptacles related to that kitchen:
The receptacle added to the outsied wall, serving the patio, may or may not be allowed on the SABC circuits. Is the patio, where you are likely to BBQ, part of this 'food service' area?

Ranges of the day typically had a receptacle mounted in the backsplash of the range. These receptacles were tapped off the 240v feed to the range, and typically had a fuse somewhere. Would SABC rules allow for this separate receptacle today?

Centered over the window behind the sink was the clock receptacle. For the youngsters amongst us, 'clock receptacles' are recessed back into the wall (to hide the plig), and have a hanging hook for the clock. As the location makes plain (over a window), the easiest way to power this clock was to tie into the circuit supplying the kitchen lights. SABC rules would still allow you to do this.

 

[Cavie]

Centered over the window behind the sink was the clock receptacle. For the youngsters amongst us, 'clock receptacles' are recessed back into the wall (to hide the plig), and have a hanging hook for the clock. As the location makes plain (over a window), the easiest way to power this clock was to tie into the circuit supplying the kitchen lights. SABC rules would still allow you to do this.

Oh! Happy days!

 

[jaylectricity]

There's no rule against the dining room, pantry, or other area in "SABC territory" having its' own circuit. Nor is there any rule against every receptacle serving a counter being on a different circuit. The counter circuits CAN supply non-counter receptacles, as long as those receptacles are in "SABC territory."

OK, but the receptacle for the microwave is in the kitchen.

 

[electricmanscott]

OK, but the receptacle for the microwave is in the kitchen.

So might a receptacles for a dishwasher or disposal and those can't be fed from a SABC.

 

[jaylectricity]

So might a receptacles for a dishwasher or disposal and those can't be fed from a SABC.

Good point. So maybe because it is a fixed appliance?