NM wire and metal framing

[djoe]

is it legal or safe to run NM wire in the crawl space of a single family dwelling set on a steel frame?-confused:

 

[djoe]

Romex not rated for damp locations

Romex not rated for damp locations

since romex is not rated for damp locations running nm through a crawl space is a no-go DA

 

[celtic]

is it legal or safe to run NM wire in the crawl space of a single family dwelling set on a steel frame?-confused:

Why wouldn't it be?

 

[480sparky]

Why wouldn't it be?

Steel framing tends to be spaced further apart than wood, so properly supporting NM according to 334.30 by be problematic.

 

[hurk27]

is it legal or safe to run NM wire in the crawl space of a single family dwelling set on a steel frame?-confused:

If this is a manufactured home then yes it is, and HUD codes (CFR 24 3280) apply, if this is a modular or other type of structure then no, local codes apply.

If it is a manufactured house, it will have a RED HUD plate on the outside of it somewhere.

 

[celtic]

I was hoping the OP would offer some more info about his particular situation...as opposed to our own wild speculations.

 

[ozark01]

So a crawl space is now considered a damp location? I can't find that in the 2008 code but i may have missed it.

 

[480sparky]

So a crawl space is now considered a damp location? I can't find that in the 2008 code but i may have missed it.

Art. 100:

Location, Damp. Locations protected from weather and not subject to saturation with water or other liquids but subject to moderate degrees of moisture. Examples of such locations include partially protected locations under canopies, marquees, roofed open porches, and like locations, and interior locations subject to moderate degrees of moisture, such as some basements, some barns, and some cold-storage warehouses.

 

[hurk27]

334.10(B) Type NMC. Type NMC cable shall be permitted as follows:
(1) For both exposed and concealed work in dry, moist, damp, or corrosive locations, except as prohibited in 334.10(3)

Don't think its a problem, cept under a trailer, which is what I was trying to say in my previous post.

And look at 334.10(C) in the 2008.

 

[jxofaltrds]

If this is a manufactured home then yes it is, and HUD codes (CFR 24 3280) apply, if this is a modular or other type of structure then no, local codes apply.

If it is a manufactured house, it will have a RED HUD plate on the outside of it somewhere.

They do not use red tags any more.

"Don't think its a problem, cept under a trailer, which is what I was trying to say in my previous post"

I can find no reason to disapprove this installation (NM). Using 334.10.(A)(1)

Where is 334.10(3) as stated in 334.10(A)(1)?

 

[jxofaltrds]

The 'approved' HUD unit is exempt from additional inspections. I do not mean a final inspection. I mean that the electric from the factory is exempt. Additions to it are allowed to be inspected and must meet the code in 'your' area.

 

[3-D]

since romex is not rated for damp locations running nm through a crawl space is a no-go DA

334.10 (A)1 leads to 334.10 (3) which sends you to 334.12. Take a look at 334.12 (C) In Unfinished Basements and Crawl Spaces. Looks like NM cable is allowed in crawl spaces.

 

[hurk27]

They do not use red tags any more.

"Don't think its a problem, cept under a trailer, which is what I was trying to say in my previous post"

I can find no reason to disapprove this installation (NM). Using 334.10.(A)(1)

Where is 334.10(3) as stated in 334.10(A)(1)?

550.15(H) Under-Chassis Wiring (Exposed to Weather). Where outdoor or under-chassis line-voltage (120 volts, nominal, or higher) wiring is exposed to moisture or physical damage, it shall be protected by rigid metal conduit or intermediate metal conduit. The conductors shall be suitable for wet locations.
Exception: Electrical metallic tubing or rigid nonmetallic conduit shall be permitted where closely routed against frames and equipment enclosures.

This should explain where I was headed.

 

[jxofaltrds]

This should explain where I was headed.

Wayne good call.

I'll have to think about the "exposed to moisture". Since I cannot find a definition of moisture in a building code. What is exposed. NO please do not go there!

"mois?ture (moischr)
n.
1. Diffuse wetness that can be felt as vapor in the atmosphere or condensed liquid on the surfaces of objects; dampness.
2. The state or quality of being damp."

"Noun 1. moisture - wetness caused by water; "

Would I have to know the dewpoint to determine this? LOL

If under penning is installed is this any different than a vented crawl?

If it was laying on the vapor barrier I would have a problem with that.

I have allowed short sections "exposed" (under the home) then to conduit outside of the under penning.

Does this sound reasonable?

 

[LarryFine]

This should explain where I was headed.

Who decides whether outdoor or under-chassis wiring is exposed? If it was always, the rule would apply to all under-chassis wiring.

 

[hurk27]

If anyone is interested, here is an online version, of the CFR Title 24--Housing and Urban Development 3280, 3280.800 to 900 is the electrical requirments, and talking about being behind times, this is the moct recent realise, and it is dated 2004, but is still referanceing the 1993 NEC:roll:
see Sec. 3280.801 Scope.

it can be downloaded (each section) as text or PDF

They do not use red tags any more.

Oh and Mike P., the HUD label is still required, see:Sec. 3280.11 Certification label., but your right I cant find where it requires it to be red, but we are still getting them that are red?

 

[hurk27]

Who decides whether outdoor or under-chassis wiring is exposed? If it was always, the rule would apply to all under-chassis wiring.

550.15 is a tuff one, as it don't leave room for interpretation, and I know here in Indiana, HUD will write you up even if it is on a concrete slab with skirting, if you use any NM type wiring method under the chassis.

Also here a trailer park can not be inspected by a local unit of government unless adopted into the city/county, even if it is located within their area, and if they do , then they are responsible for trash pick up and snow plowing, and the streets become city/county roads. so not many are adopted. so only state HUD does inspections here in parks.

 

[jxofaltrds]

If anyone is interested, here is an online version, of the CFR Title 24--Housing and Urban Development 3280, 3280.800 to 900 is the electrical requirments, and talking about being behind times, this is the moct recent realise, and it is dated 2004, but is still referanceing the 1993 NEC:roll:
see Sec. 3280.801 Scope.

it can be downloaded (each section) as text or PDF


Oh and Mike P., the HUD label is still required, see:Sec. 3280.11 Certification label., but your right I cant find where it requires it to be red, but we are still getting them that are red?

Wayne

I was wrong (about the red). Imagine that?

http://www.ibts.org/certification_label.shtml

"Each manufactured home built in the United States after June 15, 1976 has a data plate. The data plate includes the manufacturer's certification that the home is designed in accordance with U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development's construction and safety standards in effect on the date the home was manufactured. HUD Standards include Body and Frame Requirements, Thermal Protection, Plumbing, Electrical, Fire Safety, and other aspects of the home.

The data plate includes the date of manufacture, name and address of the manufacturing plant, manufacturer's serial number and model, a list of certification labels applied to the home, major equipment, roof load, heating/cooling and wind zone information. Also included is the Design Approval Primary Inspection Agency (DAPIA)."

http://www.ibts.org/data_plate.shtml

 

[hurk27]

Wayne

I was wrong (about the red). Imagine that?

http://www.ibts.org/certification_label.shtml

"Each manufactured home built in the United States after June 15, 1976 has a data plate. The data plate includes the manufacturer's certification that the home is designed in accordance with U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development's construction and safety standards in effect on the date the home was manufactured. HUD Standards include Body and Frame Requirements, Thermal Protection, Plumbing, Electrical, Fire Safety, and other aspects of the home.

The data plate includes the date of manufacture, name and address of the manufacturing plant, manufacturer's serial number and model, a list of certification labels applied to the home, major equipment, roof load, heating/cooling and wind zone information. Also included is the Design Approval Primary Inspection Agency (DAPIA)."

http://www.ibts.org/data_plate.shtml

Yea this little booger:

And is located here:

 

[jxofaltrds]

I said I was wrong!!!! LOL