Industrial Control Panels/Motor Control Centers --> 409/430 VIII

[gappvembe]

At our plant we are taking out a cooler (long steel belt with water spraying down on top of containers) and replacing it with a new one.
The original had one large drive motor and one large pump possibly a blower. The new one has 5 Pumps, a drive motor, outfeed belt & 2 blowers.
Needless to say, it is going to take a little bit more power to run the newer one.
We normally do everything in house, but for bigger jobs, we hire outside electricians, in this case, have them run some mains over to a new control box.

The said that the problem with that is, the new box that I would assemble, would have to be UL listed. This is the first time I've heard of this and I've done a few new panels and/or replaced old ones in the four years I've worked here.

So my question is.... What are the requirements for such a thing? Does it have to be UL listed, because all the individual Parts will be (Allen Bradley {Switches, Starters, Breakers, Transformer}, Paunduit Wireway, Hoffman Box)?

Some light on this subject would be much appreciated. I've searched the forum already, and the answer was still not very clear to me.

http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=118782&highlight=industrial+control+panels
http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=111354&highlight=industrial+control+panels

Thanks
Attached is rough drawing of the internal components of the box will be.
http://imgur.com/jqfc2.jpg

 

[Pierre C Belarge]

If you are talking about a control panel, there have been some changes.

See Article 409 in the NEC. That should answer alot of your questions.

 

[gappvembe]

I guess I need to know this first; which is it, an Industrial Control Panel or a Motor Control Center?

 

[gappvembe]

Closer inspection of 409.3 Other Articles
In addition to the requirements of Article 409, industrial control panels that contain branch circuits for specific loads or components, or are for control of specific types of equipment addressed in other articles of this code, shall be constructed and installed in accordance with the applicable requirements from the specific articles in Table 409.3.

Thus also 490 VII

 

[augie47]

In my experience a lot of this has to do with how your AHJ approaches the situation, but, IMHO, Art 409, especially 409.100 has somewhat standardized the approach.
The requirement of Art 409 would appear to almost mandate "factory assembled" industrial control panels except for those entities large enough to provide in-house engineering studies, etc.
Locally, the decisions are based primarily on 110.2 and 110.3. In addition, our State (TN) requires that all equipment bear the label of a NRTL such as UL. If it is an assembly, the assembly itself must bear the label.
There has been misunderstanding that as assembly of listed components, such as those you mention, is automatically a listed assembly. The listing of the overall assembly assures the components are properly engineered to be interfaced (withstand ratings, etc).
As mentioned, however, your local AHJ may have allowances or restrictions. Some of the municipal inspection agencies here will accept a "certification" letter from an licensed engineer in lieu of a NRTL label.
From a Code, ordinance , and liability standpoint few inspection agencies of which I am aware will accept an "in house" assembled industrial control panel.

 

[gappvembe]

Yeah that is basically the conclusion I came to as well. When talking the other electricians that was the first thing they mentioned, so our AHJ will most definitely take note if something like that is installed.

It's a shame really, because I have built panels like as such before and work in them all the time at my plant, and they are easier to work on than say, running conduit. It is a very neat, organized, little (well in my experience) and easy to to trouble shoot area of electrical.

 

[augie47]

Yeah that is basically the conclusion I came to as well. When talking the other electricians that was the first thing they mentioned, so our AHJ will most definitely take note if something like that is installed..

Can't speak for your inspectors, but one of the first things I look for is the manufacturer's label as mentioned in 409.110

It's a shame really, because I have built panels like as such before and work in them all the time at my plant, and they are easier to work on than say, running conduit. It is a very neat, organized, little (well in my experience) and easy to to trouble shoot area of electrical.

agree in my heart, but, from a liability standpoint, the proper engineering must be certified.

 

[justdavemamm]

...
The said that the problem with that is, the new box that I would assemble, would have to be UL listed.

Have your box built by a panel shop that is UL certified and can attached a UL sticker. This is quite common place now. All my local panel shops can now do this. It'll cost $$$ extra for the sticker and the panel shop lead person can help you get it right, design wise and labeling.

 

[raberding]

"industrial"

"industrial"

I'm wondering what the term "Industrial" means in 409. Seems like any collection or assembly of buttons, switches, timers, etc is an Industrial Control Panel. Has nothing to do with what I normally consider industrial...

 

[tom baker]

Article 409 is not all that important, as most end users will have a control panel that is listed per UL 408A standard.
And when the control panel has to be listed is determined by your AHJ. In Washington, our state rules have required product listing since 1935.
If its not UL listed, then UL or other can do a field evaluation, we have an "engineering evaluation" which costs 1/2 of a UL field evaluation.
We can also make our own control panel as long as all the parts are UL listed and its inspected.

There are many poorly made and wired control panels being sold and installed by mfgs and users. When they are caught, they say I've never heard of that, or you are the only ones who require this. But its to your benefit to require and install listed panels.

 

[augie47]

....................................................
There are many poorly made and wired control panels being sold and installed by mfgs and users. When they are caught, they say I've never heard of that, or you are the only ones who require this. But its to your benefit to require and install listed panels.

Over the years it has been almost humorous to watch the "progression"...
From" What? We never heard of that" to "Nobody ever requires that" to "Oh! You are one of those!" and "they (the customer) didn't specify and pay for that".
I recall one instance that the difference between the UL listed control panel and the non-UL panel on a crane resulted in the crane now having a "fail safe" braking system( as well as some "beefed up" components.

 

[neutral]

Just build the panel, :roll: If the panel is used for the purpose of controlling a machine or a piece of equipment in an Industrial setting, then Inspectors should not be involved or allowed. Thats why you have Qualified Electricians, plant and industrial engineers for. If you want you can buy pre-made boxes, like Hoffman to install the controls. another reason for a company to shut down and move to a better location out of the country and away from all the control freaks that keep driving up the operating cost.

 

[augie47]

Just build the panel, :roll: If the panel is used for the purpose of controlling a machine or a piece of equipment in an Industrial setting, then Inspectors should not be involved or allowed. Thats why you have Qualified Electricians, plant and industrial engineers for. If you want you can buy pre-made boxes, like Hoffman to install the controls. another reason for a company to shut down and move to a better location out of the country and away from all the control freaks that keep driving up the operating cost.

That's one option. Just move the plant to avoid the inspector. That shouldn't cost much.
And as far as any liability if someone is injured on a non-inspected, non-listed piece of equipment..don't even give that a thought.

 

[ptonsparky]

I installed a large control panel that had the UL sticker on it. Before it arrived the panel maker called me to ask what size wire I was running to it. UL was there and wanted to know. I told them my plans, figured it really should have been up to them, not me. Panel showed up. We had to cut the legs off of it to get it in the door. That made the external 120v transformer in the way so we had to move it. At startup the 30amp Class CC fuses would not allow start of 20hp 480v centrifagal fans. Imagine that. We had to overnight some class J 60amp fuse holders in. So much for the UL label. It may have been safe when they made it but just a minor detail that it didn't work.

 

[tom baker]

Just build the panel, :roll: If the panel is used for the purpose of controlling a machine or a piece of equipment in an Industrial setting, then Inspectors should not be involved or allowed. Thats why you have Qualified Electricians, plant and industrial engineers for. If you want you can buy pre-made boxes, like Hoffman to install the controls. another reason for a company to shut down and move to a better location out of the country and away from all the control freaks that keep driving up the operating cost.

By the way, our state has rules that allow just that for industrial locations. We are concerned about the cost of doing business. Did you hear about the imported Chinese printing machine, they use green for a hot conductor.The plant electrician wired it up connecting green to green and the frame became energized, someone died as a result.

 

[gappvembe]

Just build the panel, :roll: If the panel is used for the purpose of controlling a machine or a piece of equipment in an Industrial setting, then Inspectors should not be involved or allowed. Thats why you have Qualified Electricians, plant and industrial engineers for. If you want you can buy pre-made boxes, like Hoffman to install the controls. another reason for a company to shut down and move to a better location out of the country and away from all the control freaks that keep driving up the operating cost.

That's the part I don't get. I work with motor controls all the time. Is my only job to just replace and not have the knowledge to know how to incorporate something new if need be. Each part is listed, box and all. It's strange to me that a AHJ can't inspect a control box if he was that concerned.

 

[ptonsparky]

Yep, don't do a thing other than replace equal for equal. You aren't smart enough for anything else. Replacement part no longer made? No problem, use something different, just make sure you have that ICP recertified and don't use it until it is.

 

[gappvembe]

Yep, don't do a thing other than replace equal for equal. You aren't smart enough for anything else. Replacement part no longer made? No problem, use something different, just make sure you have that ICP recertified and don't use it until it is.

Yes because production can wait on that!

 

[Pierre C Belarge]

Just build the panel, :roll: If the panel is used for the purpose of controlling a machine or a piece of equipment in an Industrial setting, then Inspectors should not be involved or allowed. Thats why you have Qualified Electricians, plant and industrial engineers for. If you want you can buy pre-made boxes, like Hoffman to install the controls. another reason for a company to shut down and move to a better location out of the country and away from all the control freaks that keep driving up the operating cost.

I guess you are correct in thinking that none of the above types of individuals has ever made a mistake. Take a gander at 90.7, the second paragraph.

 

[sparklet]

grateful for the input, i did consider the ul listing part, sounds simpler yet. Thanks for all
responses, appreciate it very much.