680.26 and indoor hot tubs

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romeo

Senior Member
I did a final inspection on a new home yesterday and to my surprise found a hot tub in the basement mounted on a cement floor. The hot tub was not listed on the permit application.




There are metal support columns, a/c copper tubing and flexible aluminum heating ducts within 5 feet of tub, none of these are bonded together and there is no perimeter bonding of the concrete provided

I failed the installation based on 680.43 requiring that indoor installations comply with part II of articale 680. Some seem to think that 680.26 does not apply to indoor installations. I disagree.

Please help.
 

M. D.

Senior Member
I did a final inspection on a new home yesterday and to my surprise found a hot tub in the basement mounted on a cement floor. The hot tub was not listed on the permit application.




There are metal support columns, a/c copper tubing and flexible aluminum heating ducts within 5 feet of tub, none of these are bonded together and there is no perimeter bonding of the concrete provided

I failed the installation based on 680.43 requiring that indoor installations comply with part II of articale 680. Some seem to think that 680.26 does not apply to indoor installations. I disagree.

Please help.

I don't think 680.26 applies to an indoor installation 680.43(d) the bonding has been modified?

This is a good question I hope folks will chime in.
 

romeo

Senior Member
680.26 and indoor hot tubs

I don't think 680.26 applies to an indoor installation 680.43(d) the bonding has been modified?

This is a good question I hope folks will chime in.

Thank you for the reply. I just have a hard time trying to understand the difference from a tub on a concrete slab outdoors and on on a concrete floor in a basement,they are both in contact with earth and subject to the same conditions IMO.
 

Johnmcca

Senior Member
I would say part IV is more applicable. Part II is for indoor pools part IV is for spas and hot tubs. It says they must be bonded, not bonded together, (although this is a redundancy) and if, not separated from the spa or hot tub area by a permanent barrier.
 

romeo

Senior Member
680.26 and indoor hot tubs

I would say part IV is more applicable. Part II is for indoor pools part IV is for spas and hot tubs. It says they must be bonded, not bonded together, (although this is a redundancy) and if, not separated from the spa or hot tub area by a permanent barrier.

680.43 Indoor installations

A spa or hot tub installed indoors shall comply with the provisions of Part I and II of this articale except for the modifications of this section.

I see no exceptions to section 680.26

Please explain and thank you for the response.
 

romeo

Senior Member
680.26 and indoor hot tubs

Romeo, it appears you are correct. I am primarily industrial, not residential and sometimes the intricacy of residential escapes me. Thanks for the lesson.

Not a problem and there may be more replays. I will be looking for you when I need help with industrial installations.

It is always a pleasure to consult with serious persons in the trade.

I could have used you today when a electrician was grounding the neutral at the secondary of a transformer and also at the panel.
 

M. D.

Senior Member
Thank you for the response and I agree with you I see no exception in section 680.43 to 680.26


it says except as "modified" not that there will be exceptions .. the bonding requirement has been modified in 680.43 hasn't it ?

these folks seem to agree that 680.43 (d) would apply

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&...80.26+apply+to+hot+tubs+indoors&start=20&sa=N

though the question is not quite the same they refer to two different sections when talking about the respective bonding requirements


8. Can the equipment ground wire for a hot tub also be used as the required bond wire?

Panel Response:
From the question we have to consider separately indoor and outdoor installations. Section 680.42 covers outdoor spas and hot tubs and states that parts I and II of Article 680 must be complied with except where 680.42(A) or 680.42(B) are complied with. Section 680.42B does not relieve any of the bonding requirements but adds the permission to use equipment mounted on a common metallic skid to act as the means for bonding. Section 680.26 would require a separate bonding conductor, 8 AWG solid copper, to be installed for bonding in addition to any equipment grounding conductor required for the branch circuit.

For indoor spas and hot tubs Section 680.43(D)) and 680.43(E) would apply. Again an 8 AWG solid copper conductor is required for bonding, or mounting on a common metal structure or interconnection by threaded metal piping. The method of bonding does not include using the equipment-grounding conductor.
 

JFletcher

Senior Member
Location
Williamsburg, VA
I'm probably wrong on this...

I'm probably wrong on this...

I don't think 680.26 applies to an indoor installation 680.43(d) the bonding has been modified?

This is a good question I hope folks will chime in.

Both sections of code you site deal with bonded parts. 680.43(D) looks to be the modification to 680.26(B). If 680.26(B) always overrides/supersedes 680.43(D), then 680.43(D) would be wholly useless, right? Why is it in the NEC?

If 680.26 does apply, would a non-conductive floor underneath the spa and on surrounding area negate the need for an equipotential plane (perimeter surfaces)?

Here's an archived thread about the subject:

http://forums.mikeholt.com/archive/index.php/t-91074.html

ETA: nm, 680.43(D) has a few different requirements than 680.26(B). Been up way too long today. I'll be interested to see what the outcome of this thread is... tomorrow.
 
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don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
I agree with M.D. The only bonding rules that apply to this installation are those in 680.43(D) as these are modifications to the rules in 680.26.
 

M. D.

Senior Member
I saw this ,..thought I would share it


17-207 Log #4333 NEC-P17 Final Action: Accept in Principle in Part
(680.43)
_______________________________________________________________
TCC Action: The Technical Correlating Committee directs that the panel
clarify the panel action on this proposal concerning the use of the word
?when? since the NEC Style Manual considers ?when? as a condition of
time.
This action will be considered by the panel as a public comment.
Submitter: Carvin DiGiovanni, Association of Pool & Spa Professionals
Recommendation: Revise as follows:
680.43 Indoor Installations. A spa or hot tub installed indoors shall comply
with the provisions of Parts I and II of this article except as modified by this
section and shall be connected by the wiring methods of Chapter 3.
Exception: Listed spa and hot tub packaged units rated 20 amperes or less
shall be permitted to be cord-and-plug connected to facilitate the removal or
disconnection of the unit for maintenance and repair.
Exception: The equipotential bonding requirements for perimeter surfaces in
680.26 (B)(2) shall not apply to listed portable spas and hot tub packaged
units, and insulating mats shall not be required in lieu of equipotential bonding
of perimeter surfaces for these portable units.
Substantiation: This proposal eliminates confusion regarding bonding of
listed, packaged portable spas and hot tubs located indoors, and is being
submitted concurrent with a similar proposal to clarify language in 680.42(B)
regarding outdoor portable spas and hot tubs. Some AHJs have recently begun
requiring existing patios, floors and other surfaces (including grass yards) to be
torn up and rebuilt with an equipotential bonding grid, or have required the
installation of rubber ?insulating? mats of unknown quality and questionable
dielectric standoff characteristics under and around the unit when the property
owner purchases and installs a portable spa or hot tub. This is being done on
the stated premise that the reference to Part II in Article 680.43 requires such
arrangements. The author has seen no evidence that the CMP ever intended that
the surrounding perimeter surfaces associated with these devices be
incorporated into the equipotential bonding grid or insulated, and there is no
similar perimeter bonding requirement for storable (i.e., portable) pools,
although the issues are identical. Such a perimeter bonding requirement
(indoors or outdoors) is impractical and cost-prohibitive, as the whole point of
a portable spa is that it can readily be moved or relocated, and is integrally
bonded, grounded and GFCI-protected under other sections of Article 680 and
UL 1563. A perimeter surface bonding requirement requires demolition and
reconstruction of any and all floor area(s) where a portable spa or hot tub is
located any time it is installed or moved, with no concurrent improvement in
safety. Further, conductive floors in buildings are generally steel-reinforced,
integral to the building steel, and are required to be bonded to the grounding
system, creating an equipotential surface independent of any spa-related
bonding grid. There are no known reported shock or electrocution incidents
associated with step potentials or touch potentials associated with persons
making contact with the spa or hot tub and the surrounding perimeter surface
that could be attributed to failure to bond the perimeter surface. [REQUEST FOR INTERPRETATION???]

Panel Meeting Action: Accept in Principle in Part
Existing exception to be renumbered as Exception No. 1.

New exception to read as follows:

Exception No 2: The equipotential bonding requirements for perimeter surfaces
in 680.26 (B)(2) shall not apply to a listed portable spas and hot tub packaged
units
self-contained spa or hot tub and when installed above the finished floor.
insulating mats shall not be required in lieu of equipotential bonding of
perimeter surfaces for these portable units.

Panel Statement: CMP-17 accepts the addition of an exception to the
beginning of 680.43.
CMP-17 does not accept ?portable spas and hot tub packaged units? and uses
?self-contained spa or hot tub,? as these are the correct definitions. CMP-17
deletes the submitter?s inclusion of insulating mats as these are not required.
CMP-17 also edits the submitter?s text to convey that these units are installed
above the finished floor and not embedded in the floor.
Number Eligible to Vote: 11
Ballot Results: Affirmative: 11



From the 2010 daft of the 2011NEC
680.43

Exception No. 2: The equipotential bonding requirements
for perimeter surfaces in 680.26(B)(2) shall not apply to a
listed self-contained spa or hot tub when installed above
the finished floor. [ROP 17-207]
 

romeo

Senior Member
680.26 and indoor hot tubs

I also think 680.43(D) modifies 680.26(B)

This is the commentary found in the 2008 hand book for 680.43(D)

Bonding and grounding requirements are similar to those in Parts I and II of Article 680 EXCEPT that metal to metal mounting on a common frame or base is an acceptable bonding method.

Small conductive surfaces such as air and water jets, drain fittings, and towel bars are not required to be bonded. See 680.43(D)(4) Exception No, 1

That is the only modification described to Parts I and II of Article 680.
 

john brunetti

New member
What if a rubber membrane surrounded the hot tub on the cement floor in the basement
so that the floor was insulated all around the tub 3 feet out ?
 

M. D.

Senior Member
What if a rubber membrane surrounded the hot tub on the cement floor in the basement
so that the floor was insulated all around the tub 3 feet out ?

If you agree with Romeo's take , and many do,..it would not matter if the tub was on the third floor sitting on wood , plastic ,rubber or any other type of covering.
 

romeo

Senior Member
680.26and indoor hot tubs

680.26and indoor hot tubs

If you agree with Romeo's take , and many do,..it would not matter if the tub was on the third floor sitting on wood , plastic ,rubber or any other type of covering.

If you read my op I described a hot tub on the concrete floor in a basement. IMO that is the same as having it outdoors on a concrete slab. IMO both slabs are in contact with earth and subject to the same conditions.

Thanks for the response.
 

M. D.

Senior Member
I know what you said,. but either 680.26 applies to indoor hot tubs or it doesn't,.. basement concrete floor or third floor plastic flooring.

and your welcome:)
 

romeo

Senior Member
680.26 and indoor hot tubs

If you read my op I described a hot tub on the concrete floor in a basement. IMO that is the same as having it outdoors on a concrete slab. IMO both slabs are in contact with earth and subject to the same conditions.

Thanks for the response.

Does anyone agree with me that a hot tub mounted on a concrete slab in contact with earth is subject to the same danger of a shock hazard if it is indoors or outdoors.

Anyone that agrees would also agree that a perimeter bond is required.
 
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