680.26 and indoor hot tubs

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romeo said:
This is the commentary found in the 2008 hand book for 680.43(D)

Bonding and grounding requirements are similar to those in Parts I and II of Article 680 EXCEPT that metal to metal mounting on a common frame or base is an acceptable bonding method.
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If 680.43 were a recreation of 680.26, then you could say that the two were similar. That does not mean that 680.26 supercedes the content of 680.43 due to brevity on .43's part.

That is the only modification described to Parts I and II of Article 680.
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The modification is not as significant as the duplicates: Look at (D)(2).

680.43(D)(2) would be a waste of ink, if 680.43 was not a surrogate for 680.26.

680.26 does not apply.

It's an interpretation call, I suppose, but I would hope that the panel comment above would modify the execution of your inspections on the matter. :)
 
680.26 and indoor hot tubs

Thanks to all who replied, I respect your opinion. I realize that we live by the words of the NEC and opinions don't mater,but I wish someone would comment on my theory,that concrete floors indoors pose the same threat of voltage gradients as slabs outdoors. I am speaking from experience. Many years ago there was a house in town where people walking bare foot in the basement could feel a slight shock

PS.

I called NFPA and the person I spoke with there, agreed that 680.26(B)(2) applied to the indoor installation that I described. But I suppose that is only his opinion.
 
So how do you handle a storeable pool??... there is no equi grid and there are tens of thousands of them ,... I think the self contained hot tub sitting on frame on a concrete floor indoors, poses less of threat . Not only that but many just plug in and are easily moved ..
 
Now Romeo answer me this ,.. if this were on the first floor would you still want the perimeter surface bonded??
 
romeo said:
I am speaking from experience. Many years ago there was a house in town where people walking bare foot in the basement could feel a slight shock
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What was the cause?

I called NFPA and the person I spoke with there, agreed that 680.26(B)(2) applied to the indoor installation that I described. But I suppose that is only his opinion.
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What does that guy know? It's not like he works for... oh. :)
 
680.26 and interior hot tubs

680.26 and interior hot tubs

M. D. said:
So how do you handle a store able pool??... there is no equi grid and there are tens of thousands of them ,... I think the self contained hot tub sitting on frame on a concrete floor indoors, poses less of threat . Not only that but many just plug in and are easily moved ..
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I agree with you about sortable pools,and I would not be surprised to see a change someday.

I also agree that (as you admit) a hot tub as we describe poses less of a threat, but any threat at all is not acceptable.

You did not respond to my question about the difference between a hot tub indoors on concrete and one outdoors.

What is the difference?

Please understand I am only looking for opinions and not trying outsmart anyone, I am not smart enough to do that. I appreciate all the information I get here.
 
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romeo said:
You did not respond to my question about the difference between a hot tub indoors on concrete and one outdoors.

What is the difference?
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You got me there, with one flimsy caveat - if the CEE has been used by the service, then a non-compliant yet serviceable equipotential bonding setup is kind of already covered, loosely speaking. Beyond that, I'm not sure why the two are viewed differently.

It is interesting to me, because I've got a somewhat similar situation going. Luckily for me, it's recessed into a wood deck, so I didn't have to do anything to speak of. I did spend half an hour scratching my head about it, though.
 
,.. that is how I think of it ,.. I view a self contained hot tub in much the same way I do storable pool ..in that it is not,.. as part two describes permanent,..and sometimes shows up after both the inspector and E.C. have left the building . I think 680 is one of the worst sections in the book .
 
George Stolz said:
You got me there, with one flimsy caveat - if the CEE has been used by the service, then a non-compliant yet serviceable equipotential bonding setup is kind of already covered, loosely speaking. Beyond that, I'm not sure why the two are viewed differently.

It is interesting to me, because I've got a somewhat similar situation going. Luckily for me, it's recessed into a wood deck, so I didn't have to do anything to speak of. I did spend half an hour scratching my head about it, though.
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If this is outside it still requires a perimeter bond,. doesn't it?
 
680.26 and indoor hot tubs

M. D. said:
Now Romeo answer me this ,.. if this were on the first floor would you still want the perimeter surface bonded??
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Answer me this, is there any continuity with earth?

And please answer me this as no one has. What is the difference with a tub on a concrete floor in contact with earth indoors and one outdoors. If the one outdoors wants the perimeter surface bonded, why not the one indoors? Is there something about being indoors that eliminate the possibility of voltage gradients?

I learn a lot here and thank all of you for the pleasure of being permitted to ask questions.
 
George Stolz said:
.....It is interesting to me, because I've got a somewhat similar situation going. Luckily for me, it's recessed into a wood deck, so I didn't have to do anything to speak of. I did spend half an hour scratching my head about it, though.
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I ask because of this
 
The hot tub in my scenario is indoors; sitting in a hole that is oversized radially by over 3'. A wood deck connects the hot tub to the edge of the concrete ledge 3' away. Even if I wanted to, I can't do anything more to it - can't connect to wood or air. :)
 
romeo said:
Answer me this, is there any continuity with earth?

And please answer me this as no one has. What is the difference with a tub on a concrete floor in contact with earth indoors and one outdoors. If the one outdoors wants the perimeter surface bonded, why not the one indoors? Is there something about being indoors that eliminate the possibility of voltage gradients?

I learn a lot here and thank all of you for the pleasure of being permitted to ask questions.
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one is outdoors and one is indoors ,.I think you really want to talk about the similarities though:)

do you know for certain the slab is in direct contact ,.. no plastic barrier?

But there are a bunch of things in 680 that make me scratch my head ,.. bonding of wood surfaces for instance
 
680.26 and indoor hot tubs

George Stolz said:
I think so.

I'm worried we're going to meander off course on this - but why do you ask?
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George, I am sorry if I am creating a problem.
I respect everyone here and appreciate everyones help.

IMO a hot tub mounted on concrete in contact with earth on the floor of a basement poses the possibility of voltage gradients as one on a concrete slab outdoors that would require perimeter bonding. I asked for opinions but have had no responses.

I am trying to be responsible to the electrician and also the resident.
 
680.26 and indoor hot tubs

M. D. said:
,.. that is how I think of it ,.. I view a self contained hot tub in much the same way I do storable pool ..in that it is not,.. as part two describes permanent,..and sometimes shows up after both the inspector and E.C. have left the building . I think 680 is one of the worst sections in the book .
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You will not get an argument from me on that opinion. It is hard on both the inspector and the electrician.
 
680.26 and indoor hot tubs

I contacted the executive Director of the Ma. State Board of examiners. His opinion is the way it is written 680.43 trumps 680.26(B)(2)

He does agree with my thought, that unless there is a vapor barrier,a concrete floor in a basement presents the same possibility as a slab outdoors.

End of story
 
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