Outlet Under Breakfast Bar ... GFCI or Not?

[pjsullivan]

OK ... now I'm really confused ... because what is in the NEC doesn't always match up with practice. First of all, I'm a home inspector, and I've posted here before, and I'm pretty passionate about doing right for my customers, and I've performed over 2,000 inspections. I have a working knowledge of residential electrical practices, and I have a 2005 NEC reference (I have yet to get the latest revision).
I think my question relates to this discussion. Here goes ... Many of the newer homes I inspect have a breakfast bar ... this is essentially a countertop located above & behind the kitchen sink that is accessible from the other side ... like from a dining room or dinette. There is usually one or two outlets located at the regular height above the floor on the wall under the breakfast bar. Ninety-nine percent of the time, these outlets are GFCI protected. However, recently, I inspected a brand new home where this outlet was not GFCI protected. I wrote it up, as requiring GFCI protection, and the electrician is saying that it is not required. I think he's right, but I want to be sure. Can anyone help? Thanks.

 

[charlie b]

This was posted as a comment on another thread:
(http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=119484)

In order to avoid taking that other thread off its original topic, I created a new thread to address this separate question.

 

[charlie b]

Take a look at article 210.8(A). It lists all the places that GFCI protection is required in a dwelling unit. Dining rooms and breakfast bars are not on the list. The electrician is correct.

But let me applaud you for your concern over getting the answer right. The homeowners who you serve will appreciate your efforts as well.

 

[mcclary's electrical]

OK ... now I'm really confused ... because what is in the NEC doesn't always match up with practice. First of all, I'm a home inspector, and I've posted here before, and I'm pretty passionate about doing right for my customers, and I've performed over 2,000 inspections. I have a working knowledge of residential electrical practices, and I have a 2005 NEC reference (I have yet to get the latest revision).
I think my question relates to this discussion. Here goes ... Many of the newer homes I inspect have a breakfast bar ... this is essentially a countertop located above & behind the kitchen sink that is accessible from the other side ... like from a dining room or dinette. There is usually one or two outlets located at the regular height above the floor on the wall under the breakfast bar. Ninety-nine percent of the time, these outlets are GFCI protected. However, recently, I inspected a brand new home where this outlet was not GFCI protected. I wrote it up, as requiring GFCI protection, and the electrician is saying that it is not required. I think he's right, but I want to be sure. Can anyone help? Thanks.

If it's within 6' of the sink,,,,I say it needs a GFI. The bar keeps it from being a seperated room. Measure up the wall and over the bar, if the sink falls inside of 6' I think you are correct in requiring it to be GFI'd.

 

[infinity]

This is a good example of where a photo would greatly help.

 

[charlie b]

If it's within 6' of the sink,,,,I say it needs a GFI.

And I would disagree. The sink in question is neither a laundry sink, nor a utility sink, nor a wet bar sink.

 

[roger3829]

If it's within 6' of the sink,,,,I say it needs a GFI. The bar keeps it from being a seperated room. Measure up the wall and over the bar, if the sink falls inside of 6' I think you are correct in requiring it to be GFI'd.

I agree with Charlie. Who cares if it's within 6' of the kitchen sink? It could be 6" away and it wouldn't require GFCI protection. It would only require GFCI protection if it was serving countertop spaces.

 

[charlie b]

It would only require GFCI protection if it was serving countertop spaces.

To that I will add that GFCI protection would not be needed if the receptacle served a countertop surface in a room other than the kitchen. That said, I would probably require GFCI protection for the receptacles in question, if I were either the designer or the homeowner. But that would go beyond the NEC requirements, and into the realm of good design practice.

 

[roger3829]

To that I will add that GFCI protection would not be needed if the receptacle served a countertop surface in a room other than the kitchen. That said, I would probably require GFCI protection for the receptacles in question, if I were either the designer or the homeowner. But that would go beyond the NEC requirements, and into the realm of good design practice.

Yep. I left out a word. "kitchen"